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Are Big For-Profit Colleges Dying?
#11
Totally unscientific observation, but I wonder if people just shy away from colleges that advertise too much.    I mean how many times can you see the same advertisement on Facebook promising degrees to anyone?  I'm embarrassed to admit that I get pretty judgmental about this.... and I know better!  Yikes, but there's one I keep seeing with a guy with crazy beard and neck tattoos that promises a PhD.   Nothing wrong with beard and neck tattoos at all, and I understand that they're trying to be inclusive... but it would bug me if I had a degree from that college and were trying to portray a professional image on my resume.   (My line of work would not accept me if I had neck tats)

Anyway.. what I wonder is whether the more these for-profit colleges advertise, and the bigger they get, does that make it more difficult for them to get students due to their reputation?  No one I know wants to go to college from an institution that's known for giving a degree to anyone or for being a "last-ditch" school.
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#12
I will make one statement in defense of for profits(well of one for profit). A friend of Mine went to a particular school for a very specific program that had some accreditation that other schools and programs didn't have.
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#13
(07-13-2018, 05:23 PM)alexf.1990 Wrote:
(07-13-2018, 04:54 PM)dfrecore Wrote: More people have more debt from for-profits than non-profits.  So getting rid of for-profits altogether probably wouldn't be a bad thing, at least in that respect.

The difference between for-profit and non-profit really just comes down to business structure. MNomadic gave a good example above of a for-profit transforming itself into a non-profit without substantially changing its operations. Banning for-profit schools would just force for-profits to switch corporate structures.

How do we know their operations aren't changing? They just made the switch. All we know is that they didn't change their leadership.

(07-13-2018, 06:07 PM)burbuja0512 Wrote: Totally unscientific observation, but I wonder if people just shy away from colleges that advertise too much.    I mean how many times can you see the same advertisement on Facebook promising degrees to anyone?  I'm embarrassed to admit that I get pretty judgmental about this.... and I know better!  Yikes, but there's one I keep seeing with a guy with crazy beard and neck tattoos that promises a PhD.   Nothing wrong with beard and neck tattoos at all, and I understand that they're trying to be inclusive... but it would bug me if I had a degree from that college and were trying to portray a professional image on my resume.   (My line of work would not accept me if I had neck tats)

Anyway.. what I wonder is whether the more these for-profit colleges advertise, and the bigger they get, does that make it more difficult for them to get students due to their reputation?  No one I know wants to go to college from an institution that's known for giving a degree to anyone or for being a "last-ditch" school.

Advertising a lot can give people the impression that a school is for-profit and a scam. I've come across people who mistakenly believe that WGU is for-profit. But, if you really pay attention to WGU and SNHU's commercials, they often say that they are non-profit. Both of those schools are growing fast.

Here's an interesting article that looks at a new way of calculating graduation rates. For a long time, CCs were criticized for their low graduation rates, but the calculations didn't take into account that many students have no interest in completing an associate's degree, so they transfer and complete a bachelor's degree. When including transfer students who eventually earn a bachelor's degree, those who start out at CCs have higher graduation rates than those who attend for-profits (including those who transfer). For-profit college students don't transfer nearly as much as CC students

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/31/upsho...iated.html

Speaking of South University, this article dedicates a few paragraphs to them. Even when you track their students for eight years, their graduation rates are atrocious.
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#14
(07-13-2018, 06:13 PM)sanantone Wrote: How do we know their operations aren't changing? They just made the switch. All we know is that they didn't change their leadership.


From a business perspective, for-profit and non-profit only differ in how profits are dispersed. Whether an institution is taking advantage of students or is acting ethically goes alot deeper than its business structure.
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#15
(07-13-2018, 06:05 PM)sanantone Wrote:
(07-13-2018, 04:08 PM)eLearner Wrote: I think the media has done a good job of demonizing for-profit colleges. First they tried to demonize online learning altogether, that failed, and then they moved into phase two, attacking for-profits. Your tax status doesn't automatically mean you're a good school or bad school since both for-profits and non-profits have their share of good and bad. Ashford University, for example, could switch to any status it wants, it will still be a crummy operation.

Unfortunately, the public is mostly brain-dead and can't think for themselves, so whatever mass media tells them is what they go with. "For-profits are bad, run!" Then they go to a non-profit, get a substandard education and a wild debt and wonder what the hell just happened?

The media doesn't need to do anything. The stats speak for themselves. When 2-year for-profits are compared to community colleges (these two types of colleges have similar student bodies), for-profit graduates have worse employment outcomes. It just doesn't make sense to spend more for a worse outcome. It doesn't even make sense to spend more for the same outcome.

The general public isn't reading stats. They see an exposé on 20/20 on a couple of bad for-profit schools, and suddenly they conclude that all for-profits are bad and a scam. That's essentially what's happened, because the average person is not aware of things like what alexf.1990 pointed out. 

Some 2-year for-profits simply offer programs the local community college doesn't, so that can be part of the draw at times.

While for-profit schools may carry higher tuition rates in aggregate, the misconception the public has is that all non-profits are cheaper based on that, and it's simply untrue. It's also untrue that non-profit = better education. Employment outcomes may be better through non-profits, but that's probably a result of a combination of misconceptions held by employers being applied to the whole based on some of the bad programs, coupled with a less-connected alumni base and fewer overall connections given that many for-profit schools do most of their teaching online.
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#16
(07-13-2018, 07:17 PM)alexf.1990 Wrote:
(07-13-2018, 06:13 PM)sanantone Wrote: How do we know their operations aren't changing? They just made the switch. All we know is that they didn't change their leadership.


From a business perspective, for-profit and non-profit only differ in how profits are dispersed. Whether an institution is taking advantage of students or is acting ethically goes alot deeper than its business structure.

When it comes to the education field the goals are different, so how students are treated is different. Students at for-profits are more likely to be treated as customers. Some might think this is a good thing, but this often leads to students dictating how they are educated. From a more objective standpoint, federal government investigations found that many for-profit college admissions advisors were being paid a commission based on how many students they could get to enroll, which is against the law.

When everything can't be understood with stats, field studies are often done. I don't know if any education researcher has done a qualitative study. I just know that I've been on the inside as an instructor and student at for-profit and non-profit colleges. 

(07-13-2018, 09:56 PM)eLearner Wrote:
(07-13-2018, 06:05 PM)sanantone Wrote:
(07-13-2018, 04:08 PM)eLearner Wrote: I think the media has done a good job of demonizing for-profit colleges. First they tried to demonize online learning altogether, that failed, and then they moved into phase two, attacking for-profits. Your tax status doesn't automatically mean you're a good school or bad school since both for-profits and non-profits have their share of good and bad. Ashford University, for example, could switch to any status it wants, it will still be a crummy operation.

Unfortunately, the public is mostly brain-dead and can't think for themselves, so whatever mass media tells them is what they go with. "For-profits are bad, run!" Then they go to a non-profit, get a substandard education and a wild debt and wonder what the hell just happened?

The media doesn't need to do anything. The stats speak for themselves. When 2-year for-profits are compared to community colleges (these two types of colleges have similar student bodies), for-profit graduates have worse employment outcomes. It just doesn't make sense to spend more for a worse outcome. It doesn't even make sense to spend more for the same outcome.

The general public isn't reading stats. They see an exposé on 20/20 on a couple of bad for-profit schools, and suddenly they conclude that all for-profits are bad and a scam. That's essentially what's happened, because the average person is not aware of things like what alexf.1990 pointed out. 

Some 2-year for-profits simply offer programs the local community college doesn't, so that can be part of the draw at times.

While for-profit schools may carry higher tuition rates in aggregate, the misconception the public has is that all non-profits are cheaper based on that, and it's simply untrue. It's also untrue that non-profit = better education. Employment outcomes may be better through non-profits, but that's probably a result of a combination of misconceptions held by employers being applied to the whole based on some of the bad programs, coupled with a less-connected alumni base and fewer overall connections given that many for-profit schools do most of their teaching online.


In the grand scheme of things, no one cares about outliers. Policymakers care about overall trends.

I'll see if I can dig up this study from a few years ago, but it found that there really wasn't a significant difference in how employers view online vs. on-campus and for-profit vs. nonprofit programs. Additionally, employers often can't tell which is which. People on education forums are outliers. I can probably name several hundred schools off the top of my head along with their tax status and accreditation. Ask a random people whether or not Colorado Technical University is for-profit or nonprofit, RA or NA, and primarily online or brick and mortar. Probably only people in Colorado know anything about the school. 

Part of the draw to for-profits vs. CCs that offer the same programs is that for-profits often handle the entire financial aid process, and their placement standards are more lax if they even have a placement system. Many for-profits don't even bother to test their students, so people who can't read and/or do high school algebra are put directly into college-level courses.

I asked my students at a for-profit if they knew that the Alamo Community Colleges were a lot cheaper. Most of them did not because they didn't do any research. These were first-generation college students, so they thought it was normal to pay nearly $30k for an associate's degree. I had a couple of other students who failed to make it at Texas community colleges, so they enrolled in that school. But, I generally think the problem is lack of research and confusion over the financial aid process. I've had dozens of people tell me that an online program at a for-profit was their only option when I could literally find several nonprofit options in a couple of minutes.
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#17
(07-14-2018, 04:41 AM)Why sanantone Wrote: When it comes to the education field the goals are different, so how students are treated is different. Students at for-profits are more likely to be treated as customers. Some might think this is a good thing, but this often leads to students dictating how they are educated. From a more objective standpoint, federal government investigations found that many for-profit college admissions advisors were being paid a commission based on how many students they could get to enroll, which is against the law.

When everything can't be understood with stats, field studies are often done. I don't know if any education researcher has done a qualitative study. I just know that I've been on the inside as an instructor and student at for-profit and non-profit colleges. 

The goals are the same for both organizations: maximizing profit. Traditional non-profits throw this profit into their endowment, and for-profits pay dividends to shareholders. I don't disagree with you on the current state of things. For-profits are generally scummy schools. I think we only differ on the solution. I think that banning for-profits will force them to simply reorganize as seedy non-profits that pay out huge salaries to management and exorbitant interest payments to "creditors."

What we should really be addressing is why these schools can function while charging so much in tuition and providing little value to students. Why is it that students choose to attend these schools? How can traditional universities fill this need while offering a better value to students? How can we make the market more transparent to prospective students? I think finding the answer to these questions will be a better long term solution to the problem of predatory institutions.
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#18
This is the one that plays on our radio station constantly. "Billy was working at a fast food burger restaurant just 4 months ago and now he's making 50% more money (blah blah) go to My Computer Career dot com...." https://www.mycomputercareer.edu

I can't really get a grip on the cost of tuition or what courses are part of the programs, but their net price calculator shows the 10 month program tuition as $16k. These aren't degrees, just certs, but the suggestion is that they are for direct employment - this may be a great program without all the gen ed fluff, or it may be overpriced, I'm not sure. Does anyone with computer knowledge know the utility of those certs that they're selling? What kind of job can someone get with these certs?
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#19
(07-15-2018, 08:33 AM)cookderosa Wrote: This is the one that plays on our radio station constantly.  "Billy was working at a fast food burger restaurant just 4 months ago and now he's making 50% more money (blah blah) go to My Computer Career dot com...."  https://www.mycomputercareer.edu

I can't really get a grip on the cost of tuition or what courses are part of the programs, but their net price calculator shows the 10 month program tuition as $16k. These aren't degrees, just certs, but the suggestion is that they are for direct employment - this may be a great program without all the gen ed fluff, or it may be overpriced, I'm not sure. Does anyone with computer knowledge know the utility of those certs that they're selling?  What kind of job can someone get with these certs?
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#20
The answer is the one that's been pursued in the past...if the school isn't graduating enough students or they aren't getting the results promised, then cut them off from government aid. It's the promise of a good job coupled with no money up front that makes these so attractive to students. Their status of non-profit vs. profit is a red herring. I don't care whether they are for profit, I care that they deliver what they promise.
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