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As Colleges Move Classes Online, Families Rebel Against the Cost
#11
(08-15-2020, 08:27 PM)cannoda Wrote:
(08-15-2020, 05:17 PM)Merlin Wrote: More people complaining about schools going online without reducing tuition. Of course they see this as a reduced quality of education (which it doesn't have to be if done right) and they don't realize that at many schools, a lion's share of the tuition goes into financial aid programs to compensate for reduced government support. So they probably cannot reduce tuition by too much or risk losing student aid for those who need it.

Yes, the schools should definitely refund student housing and campus-related fees, but schools are likely to be paying more to transition to support online tools and services and to hire people with online experience to set up and manage everything, so tuition reductions are a heavy ask... especially for smaller schools without external support who operate on thin margins.

This mostly comes down to a stigma against online education and people seeing it as inferior. Which again, it doesn't have to be if the schools prepare properly. At least IMO.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/15/us/co...ition.html

Your analysis is spot on.  However, I don't see online as equivalent to face-to-face in a traditional college setting, at least for traditional-age college students.     

I have long said that freshman learn more in their dorms and extracurricular activities than they do in their classes.  There is a richness of experience living on campus. For many it is the first time in their lives where they have to live and deal with people from different cultures, backgrounds, and educational experiences. For the first time in their lives many on-campus freshman have to make decisions without the readily available input and influence of parents. 

As a professor, I saw distinct differences in student engagement and the conduct of group projects with the emergency switch from face-to-face to online instruction in the eleventh week of a 15-week semester.  A student's bedroom or parent's basement has far more distractions relative to a classroom.  There were also significant issues with students living in remote rural locations with slow and unreliable internet access.  I also observed that many students took on jobs when they got home that conflicted with or reduced the time for coursework.  In a pandemic, no less.

I believe that the online stigma isn't much different and is probably derived from  the "part-time," "correspondence," and "night school" stigmas that has been around for decades.  It is only in the past six or seven years or so that traditional colleges have begun to accept online courses and degrees as equivalent to their face-to-face equivalents.  My transcripts (from a few decades ago) clearly indicate the courses were completed by correspondence even though they had the same course numbers and syllabi as the face-to-face class and were taught by regular (tenured) faculty members.

Good perspective professor,

I started B&M so I agree with you about the campus experience especially at the freshman level being valuable.  But the schools need to get a handle on the fixed costs (how many industries have the same problem?).  Decent classrooms, decent faculty and decent dorms aren't that expensive.  Notice I said decent not excellent.  Nothing wrong with a few high end private schools for the silver spoon set but state schools on down need to get this under control or be disrupted out of business.
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#12
When paying tuition at a brick & mortar college, you're paying for the experience and the networking opportunities. They've lost all of that with transitioning to online. Let's be honest. Online learning isn't the same as in classroom learning. Some excel. Some don't. All instructors are NOT great at online teaching either. Many could barely operate a chalkboard let alone anything with technology.

CSU Global is a state university. It's part of the University of College system. They charged $350 per credit for undergrad. There are zero fees. This school was designed from day one to be an online school. They do it well. HUGE difference in tuition here and most other colleges. Many colleges are going to find themselves in serious financial trouble over the next few years. Students and parents are NOT going to pay B&M prices for an online education. Colleges are going to have to completely reinvent themselves. They're not going to need massive campuses that cost a fortune to maintain. Some colleges already have good online programs. They will be the ones who succeed. The ones who think the kids will come back next year are the ones who won't be open in a few years. They're all getting a reality check right now.

One interesting thing I noticed last night while filling out my master promissory note for a student loan. Grad school student loans are capped at $20,500 per year. Many grad programs come in just under that amount. Coincidence? Nope. Undergrad tuition at the same school will be significantly higher. Why? Parents supplement the tuition and there are loans for parents to pay that $45,000 in tuition. I found it very interesting how closely tied to the grad school student loan cap grad tuition is at many colleges.

(08-15-2020, 06:12 PM)LevelUP Wrote:
(08-15-2020, 05:17 PM)Merlin Wrote: More people complaining about schools going online without reducing tuition. Of course they see this as a reduced quality of education (which it doesn't have to be if done right) and they don't realize that at many schools, a lion's share of the tuition goes into financial aid programs to compensate for reduced government support. So they probably cannot reduce tuition by too much or risk losing student aid for those who need it.

Yes, the schools should definitely refund student housing and campus-related fees, but schools are likely to be paying more to transition to support online tools and services and to hire people with online experience to set up and manage everything, so tuition reductions are a heavy ask... especially for smaller schools without external support who operate on thin margins.

This mostly comes down to a stigma against online education and people seeing it as inferior. Which again, it doesn't have to be if the schools prepare properly. At least IMO.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/15/us/co...ition.html

There isn't much difference if you are sitting in a classroom or watching the teacher via zoom.  But kids feel like they should be given a discount.

It is a big mess for schools.  They have a lot of fixed costs and aren't set up for a fully online school.  Some have bloated pension plans and were already having problems before the crisis.  Without sports, that is a major source of revenue.  They are already losing tons of money and can't afford to discount tuitions. 

The smaller community colleges will get crushed if this goes on much longer.  People will just go to places like WGU or wherever is the cheapest.  The big state colleges should survive.

By the end of the year, lots of vaccines will likely be released.  The question will be if they work at all, work permanently, and are safe to use.

I still favor the idea of going HAM (Hard as a MF) on testing:
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archi...ay/615217/


Go to http://archive.vn/ to read nytimes or get around those annoying paywalls.

Community colleges are state funded. They're not private schools. They're fine. Taxpayers cover most of the tuition. Community college is quite often far cheaper for in state tuition than WGU.


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#13
(08-19-2020, 12:06 PM)ss20ts Wrote: It's part of the University of College system.

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MA in Ed Tech Leadership, George Washington University
PhD in Leadership, U. of the Cumberlands (in progress)
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#14
(08-19-2020, 12:06 PM)ss20ts Wrote: Grad school student loans are capped at $20,500 per year. Many grad programs come in just under that amount. Coincidence? Nope. Undergrad tuition at the same school will be significantly higher. Why? Parents supplement the tuition and there are loans for parents to pay that $45,000 in tuition. I found it very interesting how closely tied to the grad school student loan cap grad tuition is at many colleges.


The Education-Gov't Complex is a racket. Big Grin
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#15
(08-15-2020, 05:17 PM)Merlin Wrote: This mostly comes down to a stigma against online education and people seeing it as inferior. Which again, it doesn't have to be if the schools prepare properly. At least IMO.

I am really interested to see how the market will adapt to this.
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#16
(08-19-2020, 12:30 PM)SteveFoerster Wrote:
(08-19-2020, 12:06 PM)ss20ts Wrote: It's part of the University of College system.

[Image: 4bzrjv.jpg]

It will be entertaining when an autocorrect bites you on the behind.


UMPI: BLS with Management Information Systems, Project Management, and Management minors - Graduating Spring 2021

Community College: AS Individual Studies
Community College: AAS Business Administration

Sophia: Environmental Science, Developing Effective Teams, The Essentials of Managing Conflict, College Algebra, Visual Communication, Microeconomics, Introduction to Information Technology, Introduction to Statistics, Human Biology
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#17
(08-20-2020, 03:20 PM)ss20ts Wrote: It will be entertaining when an autocorrect bites you on the behind.

Haha, if you come up with something more fitting than what Steve posted we'll all laugh with you  Tongue
San Jacinto College- AA, business administration

In Progress 
Nations University- BA, religious studies (60/120)
University of the People- BS, health science (76/122)
Universidad Isabel I- MBA (0/13) and 
Master, international trade (0/17)

Credits (144) 
RA (104): university (50) / junior college (39) / community college (15)
ACE (34): Sophia (17) / Study (13) / TEEX (2) / Institutes (2)

NA (6): university (6)
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#18
(08-20-2020, 03:20 PM)ss20ts Wrote: It will be entertaining when an autocorrect bites you on the behind.

And it surely will! I meant to be funny, not critical!
BS, Info Sys concentration, Charter Oak State College
MA in Ed Tech Leadership, George Washington University
PhD in Leadership, U. of the Cumberlands (in progress)
More at https://stevefoerster.com
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