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Asking for a 3 credit waiver for Social Psychology at TESU?
#61
(12-13-2018, 05:09 PM)Supermind Wrote: Check out study.com’s Classroom Management- EDU 103. It transfers into TESU as EDU-319. But it can only be used as a free elective.

But that has nothing to do with UL and LL. The reason it's only good for a Free Elective is that EDU courses aren't GenEds and they don't fit into most AOS.
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#62
(12-13-2018, 05:15 PM)Merlin Wrote:
(12-13-2018, 03:33 PM)mysonx3 Wrote: I wonder how common it is for TESU to count another school's upper level credits as lower level? I know it happens a lot at other schools but it seems like I rarely hear about it happening at TESU, but obviously it's happening with the BYU course. Hoping it doesn't happen with the Ohio U course because if I can't get 3 of my Social Psychology credits to count as UL I'm going to end up "wasting" more of the CC courses I'm taking than I'd like to.

Hmm, there was a top-level administrative change that went into effect back in summer that made it so TESU had to revise the transfer acceptance policy to honor the UL vs LL nature of course credits. This is what caused TESU to revise how they accept ACE & NCCRS credits and made them stop accepting some LL courses as UL and vice versa. I thought the purpose of that process was to ensure that when people transferred in UL credits they were accepted as UL credits at TESU.

I wonder if they are just saying that the BYU course will come in as LL or if that is actually what the evaluators are saying. Its always hit or miss with advising since they tend to guess a lot and don't always understand the policies or how these things actually work. Which is why they're often wrong when advising students on alternative credit transfers.

My gut says if a course is UL at an RA college, it will transfer to TESU as UL despite what advising says. You really won't know until you try though. And if two courses come in as different course codes, they almost always do not overlap. Sometimes they will if they are off by 1 number or so, but I don't think this applies when comparing UL vs LL courses.

It will make things so much easier for alternative credit students if TESU would just let us pick any 300-400 level course in the given subject, without having to worry about how it will transfer into TESU.
TESU BALS-Psych. + ASNSM(Math) 

TEEX(6): Cybersec. 101/201/301
The Institutes(2): Ethics
Sophia(2): Ess. Of Managing Conflict, Dev. Effective Teams
NFA(1): Comm. Safety Edu.
GED(10): NAS-131, SOC-273, MAT-121, HUM-101 (1)
Study.com(75): Intro to Psych., Soc. Psych.-1, Growth & Dev. Psych., Personality Psych., History & Systems of Psych., Org. Theory, Library Science, Comm. at Workplace, Intro to World Religion, I/O Psych., Ethics in Soc. Sc., Org. Comm., Eng. 104, Eng. 105, History of Vietnam war, Sp. Ed. History & Law, Diff. Ed., Classroom Mgmt., Foundations of Ed., Abnormal Psych., Rsch. methods in Psych., College Math, Intro. to Geometry., Calculus (6).
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#63
(12-13-2018, 05:15 PM)Merlin Wrote:
(12-13-2018, 03:33 PM)mysonx3 Wrote: I wonder how common it is for TESU to count another school's upper level credits as lower level? I know it happens a lot at other schools but it seems like I rarely hear about it happening at TESU, but obviously it's happening with the BYU course. Hoping it doesn't happen with the Ohio U course because if I can't get 3 of my Social Psychology credits to count as UL I'm going to end up "wasting" more of the CC courses I'm taking than I'd like to.

Hmm, there was a top-level administrative change that went into effect back in summer that made it so TESU had to revise the transfer acceptance policy to honor the UL vs LL nature of course credits. This is what caused TESU to revise how they accept ACE & NCCRS credits and made them stop accepting some LL courses as UL and vice versa. I thought the purpose of that process was to ensure that when people transferred in UL credits they were accepted as UL credits at TESU.

I wonder if they are just saying that the BYU course will come in as LL or if that is actually what the evaluators are saying. Its always hit or miss with advising since they tend to guess a lot and don't always understand the policies or how these things actually work. Which is why they're often wrong when advising students on alternative credit transfers.

My gut says if a course is UL at an RA college, it will transfer to TESU as UL despite what advising says. You really won't know until you try though. And if two courses come in as different course codes, they almost always do not overlap. Sometimes they will if they are off by 1 number or so, but I don't think this applies when comparing UL vs LL courses.
What you are saying is exactly what my understanding is (or at least was).

Honestly, I think it is probably the case that the advisor simply said it was lower-level because he assumed an UL course couldn't duplicate a LL course. He did tell me that he had asked the dean about whether it duplicates the Study.com course, so I'm reasonably confident that part of it is correct.

Honestly, I think my plan from here given my need for graded credits is to take the BYU course and transfer it. If it's LL, then I guess it'll just replace the Study.com Psychology 104. I'll be in a little bit of a bind trying to find a place for my UL credits in the Area of Study in that case, but not really more of a bind than if I hadn't taken it (since it still leaves room for one more UL Social Psychology class). And if it's UL, that's obviously preferable. I'm certain that ONE of Coopersmith/either Study.com course/Ohio U/Ed4Credit offers a course that DOESN'T duplicate it. Especially given that the two Study.com courses don't duplicate each other.

Anyone have any thoughts on that strategy? Also, if anyone wants to take a look at the course numbering system and make sure I'm not crazy? It sure looks to me like PSYCH 350 would be upper level, but I'm no expert. Here is the link to the independent study courses:

https://is.byu.edu/catalog

(12-13-2018, 05:09 PM)Supermind Wrote: Check out study.com’s Classroom Management- EDU 103. It transfers into TESU as EDU-319. But it can only be used as a free elective.

That is a NCCRS UL course transferring in as an UL course. Nothing surprising there. As davewill explained, the reason it can only be used as a free elective is because it doesn't fit under the subjects of any BA/BALS/BSBA
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#64
Help me understand what factors other than course numbers go into determining whether it is LL or UL. Is it depth of content, or duration of course? For example, I found study.com’s History & Systems of Psychology simpler to comprehend than Growth & Dev. Psychology. Yet, H&S is 400, and G&D is 200. Likewise, Abnormal Psychology has 160 lessons. But it is LL. But organizational Theory is only about 95 lessons. And it is UL. I have just started with Abnormal Psychology, and it does feel a bit dense.
TESU BALS-Psych. + ASNSM(Math) 

TEEX(6): Cybersec. 101/201/301
The Institutes(2): Ethics
Sophia(2): Ess. Of Managing Conflict, Dev. Effective Teams
NFA(1): Comm. Safety Edu.
GED(10): NAS-131, SOC-273, MAT-121, HUM-101 (1)
Study.com(75): Intro to Psych., Soc. Psych.-1, Growth & Dev. Psych., Personality Psych., History & Systems of Psych., Org. Theory, Library Science, Comm. at Workplace, Intro to World Religion, I/O Psych., Ethics in Soc. Sc., Org. Comm., Eng. 104, Eng. 105, History of Vietnam war, Sp. Ed. History & Law, Diff. Ed., Classroom Mgmt., Foundations of Ed., Abnormal Psych., Rsch. methods in Psych., College Math, Intro. to Geometry., Calculus (6).
Saylor (15): Intro. to Mol. & Cellular Bio., Comp. Politics, Corporate Comm., Env. Ethics, Principles of Comm. 
TESU (1): Cornerstone, Lib. 495 Capstone.
CSM (3): Quant. reasoning. 
Aleks (6): Trigonometry, Intro to Statistics. 

MS-Psychology; Walden University 
GPA: 4/4
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#65
(12-13-2018, 06:02 PM)Supermind Wrote: Help me understand what factors other than course numbers go into determining whether it is LL or UL. Is it depth of content, or duration of course? For example, I found study.com’s History & Systems of Psychology simpler to comprehend than Growth & Dev. Psychology. Yet, H&S is 400, and G&D is 200. Likewise, Abnormal Psychology has 160 lessons. But it is LL. But organizational Theory is only about 95 lessons. And it is UL. I have just started with Abnormal Psychology, and it does feel a bit dense.

I think (but don't have anything to back this up), that part of it also has to do with what the course is typically considered if you take it as a school rather than as alternative credit. For example, History and Systems of Psychology is almost invariably (from what I have seen) an UL course. Abnormal Psychology I've seen as both (it's offered at my CC, but TESU and many of the schools with Independent Study programs have it as UL). Ditto for Social Psychology.
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#66
I thought so too. But what I am trying to understand is, are there no objective criteria for measuring the intensity of a course? For example, if a course involves ‘x’ hours of instruction, and if it covers ‘y’ number of concepts, then regardless of where it is offered, it should be on the same level. The numbers can vary slightly- like it can be 340 at TESU & 350 on study.com. But it can’t be 210 on study.com and 310 at TESU. That is what makes it confusing.
TESU BALS-Psych. + ASNSM(Math) 

TEEX(6): Cybersec. 101/201/301
The Institutes(2): Ethics
Sophia(2): Ess. Of Managing Conflict, Dev. Effective Teams
NFA(1): Comm. Safety Edu.
GED(10): NAS-131, SOC-273, MAT-121, HUM-101 (1)
Study.com(75): Intro to Psych., Soc. Psych.-1, Growth & Dev. Psych., Personality Psych., History & Systems of Psych., Org. Theory, Library Science, Comm. at Workplace, Intro to World Religion, I/O Psych., Ethics in Soc. Sc., Org. Comm., Eng. 104, Eng. 105, History of Vietnam war, Sp. Ed. History & Law, Diff. Ed., Classroom Mgmt., Foundations of Ed., Abnormal Psych., Rsch. methods in Psych., College Math, Intro. to Geometry., Calculus (6).
Saylor (15): Intro. to Mol. & Cellular Bio., Comp. Politics, Corporate Comm., Env. Ethics, Principles of Comm. 
TESU (1): Cornerstone, Lib. 495 Capstone.
CSM (3): Quant. reasoning. 
Aleks (6): Trigonometry, Intro to Statistics. 

MS-Psychology; Walden University 
GPA: 4/4
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#67
(12-13-2018, 06:31 PM)Supermind Wrote: I thought so too. But what I am trying to understand is, are there no objective criteria for measuring the intensity of a course? For example, if a course involves ‘x’ hours of instruction, and if it covers ‘y’ number of concepts, then regardless of where it is offered, it should be on the same level. The numbers can vary slightly- like it can be 340 at TESU & 350 on study.com. But it can’t be 210 on study.com and 310 at TESU. That is what makes it confusing.

That's not how college works though. As a whole, upper level courses at colleges don't take more time, involve more instruction, or teach more concepts. If anything, they usually teach fewer because they are more specialized.
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ASNSM Mathematics, Thomas Edison State University, March 2020

Up Next:
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#68
(12-13-2018, 06:31 PM)Supermind Wrote: I thought so too. But what I am trying to understand is, are there no objective criteria for measuring the intensity of a course? For example, if a course involves ‘x’ hours of instruction, and if it covers ‘y’ number of concepts, then regardless of where it is offered, it should be on the same level. The numbers can vary slightly- like it can be 340 at TESU & 350 on study.com. But it can’t be 210 on study.com and 310 at TESU. That is what makes it confusing.

I don't know how ACE/NCCRS determines LL or UL, but I do know that you shouldn't use the Study.com course numbers to determine what something will come in as at TESU.  You should look at whether ACE/NCCRS said it was UL or LL, that is what TESU is using at this point (except Physical Science for whatever reason).

So, if a course says 100-level or 200-level at Study.com, then they created it as a LL course, and in all of those cases, ACE/NCCRS agreed, and they are LL.  If Study.com creates a 300-level course, ACE/NCCRS may or may not agree that it's UL, so you have to go by the ACE/NCCRS database to check.
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#69
(12-13-2018, 06:02 PM)Supermind Wrote: Help me understand what factors other than course numbers go into determining whether it is LL or UL. Is it depth of content, or duration of course?  For example, I found study.com’s History & Systems of Psychology simpler to comprehend than Growth & Dev. Psychology. Yet, H&S is 400, and G&D is 200. Likewise, Abnormal Psychology has 160 lessons. But it is LL. But organizational Theory is only about 95 lessons. And it is UL. I have just started with Abnormal Psychology, and it does feel a bit dense.

UL vs LL is content based. It often has to do with the depth of the subject matter and how it is delivered. Certain subjects are considered first year, second year, third year, etc. The difficulty of a course doesn't always have to do with the course level. Some first-year subjects are harder to grasp than more advanced subjects. More advanced subjects tend to expect people to come in with prior experience so they can be shorter. They also expect students to be able to apply their knowledge better. So, generally speaking, LL courses tend to be more about rote learning and memorization and upper-level courses are more about applied knowledge and analysis.

At SDC the UL courses also tend to have fewer quizzes but will have projects or papers that require more analysis and interpretation of the course material. When developing a new course they will aim it to fit into a certain slot (based on similar courses taught in 4-year colleges) but after a review ACE may decide that the course's subject matter isn't deep enough or isn't presented in enough detail for it to qualify as UL, and then they end up with a LL ACE recommendation.
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#70
Thank you Merlin & dfrecore. Makes things clearer.
TESU BALS-Psych. + ASNSM(Math) 

TEEX(6): Cybersec. 101/201/301
The Institutes(2): Ethics
Sophia(2): Ess. Of Managing Conflict, Dev. Effective Teams
NFA(1): Comm. Safety Edu.
GED(10): NAS-131, SOC-273, MAT-121, HUM-101 (1)
Study.com(75): Intro to Psych., Soc. Psych.-1, Growth & Dev. Psych., Personality Psych., History & Systems of Psych., Org. Theory, Library Science, Comm. at Workplace, Intro to World Religion, I/O Psych., Ethics in Soc. Sc., Org. Comm., Eng. 104, Eng. 105, History of Vietnam war, Sp. Ed. History & Law, Diff. Ed., Classroom Mgmt., Foundations of Ed., Abnormal Psych., Rsch. methods in Psych., College Math, Intro. to Geometry., Calculus (6).
Saylor (15): Intro. to Mol. & Cellular Bio., Comp. Politics, Corporate Comm., Env. Ethics, Principles of Comm. 
TESU (1): Cornerstone, Lib. 495 Capstone.
CSM (3): Quant. reasoning. 
Aleks (6): Trigonometry, Intro to Statistics. 

MS-Psychology; Walden University 
GPA: 4/4
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