Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Found: $1,500 (TOTAL) At-own-pace Law School
#31
(01-05-2017, 10:22 AM)Slobodon Wrote: After considering myriad options - and needing to distance - I'll start NWCU on Jan. 23
I just finished 1L @ Northwestern California. Prepare for "Baby Bar," June 25, 2019.

(01-05-2017, 10:28 AM)jsd Wrote:
Slobodon Wrote:After considering myriad options - and needing to distance - I'll start NWCU on Jan. 23

Out of curiosity, what do you plan on doing with this degree?
I'm interested in criminal law, whether in direct lawyering, like criminal defense, or, from a policy standpoint.

I've changed jobs to more align with this; I work on the admin side of jails, but, we put out an annual mental health survey of our population, so, my interest in recidivism reduction, alternative sentencing, mandatory minimum sentencing reform, plea bargain reform, etc., may be met more or less in strict use of the law degree.

(01-05-2017, 04:10 PM)jsd Wrote: And you can only sit for the bar in California, known for being one of the hardest states to pass. And you can't just transfer it to another state.

And on top of that, your figures are very generous. For all Bar takers who attempted the CA Bar after going to one of these CA unaccredited schools, only 12.5% passed in the most recent stats available (July 2016) (source: http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/...0716_R.pdf)

As far as the baby bar, only 18.2% people passed in the most recent (June 2016) (source: http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/...1216_R.pdf)

There's really no reason to go to any of these schools. Even if you managed to pass the baby bar and bar exam and move to california, you're not going to get a decent job in the field. People from traditional ABA law schools with lower ranking cant even get decent law jobs.

edit to add this quick rundown I did of the success rate of these programs from a previous thread, based on the passage rates a year or so ago (20% baby bar, 11% bar, 90% first-year drop out rate)

jsd Wrote:let's say 1,000 students are in your cohort... 90% drop out within the first year, so we're already down to 100 students. Only 20% of those pass the baby bar, so 20 left. 11% of those will pass the real bar, or 2.2

It's POSSIBLE you'll be one of those odd 2-3 people who made it. But it's entirely improbable, no matter how ambitious, smart, and driven you are. a 0.22% chance.

And look at the opportunity cost... what could you have been putting all of that effort into for 1-4  years had you not gone? A graduate degree that meant more tangible success perhaps?.
I live in Virginia. We have the lowest qualifications for taking the Bar, here, of any state in The Union. Here, one can simply be supervised by an attorney for 20 months or so and sit for the Bar.

(01-05-2017, 04:26 PM)creditmonsoon Wrote:
dcan Wrote:I know this is tangential to the normal "Big 3" discussions here, but this is in keeping with the "insanely low prices if you can put in the work" approach. This is a long post, I apologize, but I wanted to try and capture what I do know (not a whole lot, but enough) about these schools.

This is not an advertisement, just passing this fascinating find along.

Bottom line: I think I've found the "CLEP Law School." Smile  15 classes, $100/class, at your own pace, using top-notch texts. You will NOT practice law though unless you find a loophole, which people here love to find. Smile

So I've been looking around at all these "online law schools" and a few things stand out. First, none of them are accredited by the American Bar Association, which essentially guarantees you won't actually practice law. The one exception is California, which most of these online JD degrees are geared towards and which are state-accredited by the California state bar. However, California requires all state-accredited school students to take the First Year Law Students Exam at the end of year one. Failure to pass the exam means you are thrown out of the JD program. Here's a good overview of the California approach & different types of law school.

That seems like a lot to go through for someone who just wants to learn the law but doesn't plan to practice. Of course, if you just want to learn the law you can get a master's in legal studies in two years. American Military University has them for under $12,000.

However, there is a third option, that grants a full Juris Doctor degree, but by design does not prepare you for any bar exam, and is not accredited, at all. That said, there are some cases where a degree like this can make sense. Think law enforcement, government work, advanced contract knowledge, etc.

It's at Mid-Atlantic School of Law. Horrible website, but some decent reviews, including this one by a current student who works at an attorney's office. The school is apparently valid enough for him to already have his "third-year practice certificate" in the state of Virginia, meaning he can represent in court as long as there is a licensed attorney there for supervision. Plus, at least in Virginia you can get this cheap degree, then do 26 hours in a "real" law school (roughly one year of classes), and sit for the bar. What a loophole.

Tuition is paid in arrears. (seriously) You take 15 "modules" (classes) -- 12 core and 3 electives -- and then you get a JD degree. And classes are at your own pace. So apparently you enroll in the course, study, take the test, then pay and get credit and move on. This sounds very similar to places like WGU, NCU, etc.

The class textbooks are Gilbert's Outlines, available for about $35 each brand new at Amazon. "Outlines" are used by "real" law students to study for the bar exam. So basically you would be reading what law students read to pass the bar. Kind of like reading much bigger REA books. The book on property has stellar reviews on Amazon as it is essentially the study guide written by the author of the property law book used in 90% of law schools. The others are presumably also high quality, since they are designed to help pass the bar exam.

If you want to practice law quickly the student manual itself advises at the beginning that you should look at a traditional B&M route, or alternately go through an online school designed to get you through the California bar. However, if you want to learn the law for personal or professional enhancement (without actually practicing law directly) then this may well be a useful route. Here is an excellent discussion (on "the other board") about the pros and cons of a non-bar JD. Many people are against it, but there can be some cases where it makes sense.

Besides, $1,500 for a law degree at your own pace is rather a ridiculous deal for the people around here.

hmm. Would receiving a JD allow me to one day be able to have a "foot in the door" if I choose to finish up with a bar exam in my state, or do I run the chance of my JD being seen as nothing but a diploma from a diploma mill? That's my only concern. Is it legit?
Some jurisdictions require a person be licensed for 10 years, prior to being allowed to sit for the Bar, in their home state, after obtaining (as it would be, in the case of Northwestern California School of Law) their JD (via this non-ABA-accredited program) and passing the California Bar. Others are reciprocal or less stringent in their "time-served" requirement to allow reciprocity with California.

(01-05-2017, 04:44 PM)jsd Wrote:
creditmonsoon Wrote:hmm. Would receiving a JD allow me to one day be able to have a "foot in the door" if I choose to finish up with a bar exam in my state, or do I run the chance of my JD being seen as nothing but a diploma from a diploma mill? That's my only concern. Is it legit?


No, you will not be able to sit for the bar outside of CA with one of these JDs.
Virginia is an exception, and, Virginia may allow reciprocity, elsewhere, too.

There are seven states with reduced qualifications for sitting for The Bar.

Virginia is the least restrictive.

I live in Va., so, I've been unconcerned as to the others, but, between their lesser requirements and/or reciprocity, then otherwise-ten-year waiting period for time being licensed that some states require of a California attorney who holds a JD from a non-ABA-accredited school, such as Northwestern California University School of Law (I write it all out, just to ward off any confusion with any other school), may be lessened.

Comes down to jurisdiction.

(01-05-2017, 07:33 PM)dfrecore Wrote:
creditmonsoon Wrote:hmm. Would receiving a JD allow me to one day be able to have a "foot in the door" if I choose to finish up with a bar exam in my state, or do I run the chance of my JD being seen as nothing but a diploma from a diploma mill? That's my only concern. Is it legit?

This is legit, not a diploma mill.  But it won't help you in other states, since it's specifically for CA.  Other states may have their own policies though, for online JD's.  Who knows.
Yes, you are right. 

It varies by state.

A bunch of them require 10 years of licensure for that Calif.-based non-ABA JD-holding bar-passer, before they'll allow reciprocity, but, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, there are 7 states with reduced Bar qualifications, anyway (w/ Va. being the least - where "reading the law" is allowed), so - as I have heard from other Northwestern California University School of Law (reiterated, here, in ull, only for clarity as to what I'm talking about, for the uninitiated) - there are, indeed, some loopholes, some of which involve simply petitioning the state bar association (not that that's simple to do - just that it's not always a perfect shut-out, w/o some taking-into-account of personality, accomplishment, mission, experience, etc.).

(01-06-2017, 12:15 PM)dmjacobsen Wrote: What manner of sorcery resurrected this 5-year-old post?
'tis I ! Sorcerer Slobodon!

And, for my latest magic trick, I bring back the thread, after another two years!

(01-06-2017, 01:06 PM)dfrecore Wrote:
dmjacobsen Wrote:What manner of sorcery resurrected this 5-year-old post?

I always wonder about the zombie threads myself.  People must search on a key word, and old stuff pops up.  They don't see the date, post a comment, and voila, it's back!
Alice Cooper used to sing, "I Love the Dead."

I like zombie threads, if still relevant.

One figures...the same questions do get asked, again and again...

(01-06-2017, 01:29 PM)KayV Wrote: Late night spammers resurrect zombie threads, the spam is removed, and someone posts a comment without noticing the date.

...and then, there's the plain old utility of an existing thread with still-relevant information and commentary...

(01-06-2017, 05:35 PM)jsd Wrote: I don't know, it kind of makes sense. the first reply that Slobodon made ("...........") had the subject like of " 'white shoe' law firm is the stock phrase" as if he/she was replying to a spam post, that we don't see anymore. KayV might be on to something.

got it

I wondered about that, myself
Reply
#32
Good luck on the baby bar!

Your plan to study for 2 more years, work 20 months under supervision, and take the bar?
Working on second TESU degree. 
First Masters complete.
TESU BSBA (with ASNSM) in March 2018.
Reply
#33
FYI, California also allows a "reading the law" apprenticeship to qualify to sit for the bar. But something like only 4 people had ever done it at the point I last looked a couple years ago. Any idea how common it is in VA?

By the way, none of those 7 states with lower admission requirements will take the Cal-Bar school on it's own for sitting for the bar. They'll require other things (like the VA apprenticeship which could be done without the CA school, though I guess the CA school might make it easier... but you'd have to do that on top of the CA school). 0 state bars currently have reciprocity with California. Not too long ago after a court battle, one state bar gave a distinguished lawyer reciprocity in a specific state (I want to say MI, but this was a few years back and my memory is hazy), but they made it clear they were not setting this as the standard and going forward they would continue to deny reciprocity and CalBar schools as matter of policy.

If you pass the CAL bar exam, only 3 other states will let you take an attorneys exam (shortened version of the bar for practicing attorneys) if you don't have an ABA degree. But you also need to have 3-10 years (depending on state) of being a practicing attorney in CA before you can take this. VA isn't one of them. Maine, Maryland, and Rhode Island.

You could work in federal courts after passing the California Bar, though!
In Progress: MS Cybersecurity, Georgia Tech (2021?)
BS IT Security, Western Governors University, 2018
BA Psychology, Thomas Edison State University, 2016
AA Sociology, Chaffey College, 2015
IT Industry Certs: CCNA Security, CCNA, CCENT, Linux+,
   LPIC-1, Security+, Network+, Project+, A+, & CIW SDA.

View all of my earned credits on my Omni Transcript!
Visit the DegreeForum Community Wiki!
Reply
#34
(02-08-2019, 12:31 PM)Ideas Wrote: Good luck on the baby bar!

Your plan to study for 2 more years, work 20 months under supervision, and take the bar?
Actually, I have 3 more years (as a part-time program, it takes 4 years).

Thanks for the encouragement, though.

The "Baby Bar" has an 80% fail rate, but, I'm still hopeful to pass it, first time out. I know one guy who did just that. However, I know another, the somewhat famous Ray Hayden, who passed it on his sixth attempt! That's perseverance!

I'll probably take the Bar, in Virginia, though, long before I finish the JD, though, just because I can and because it's considered on the easier side of state bar exams.

137 days to go until I sit for the exam!

(02-08-2019, 12:35 PM)jsd Wrote: FYI, California also allows a "reading the law" apprenticeship to qualify to sit for the bar. But something like only 4 people had ever done it at the point I last looked a couple years ago. Any idea how common it is in VA?

By the way, none of those 7 states with lower admission requirements will take the Cal-Bar school on it's own for sitting for the bar. They'll require other things (like the VA apprenticeship which could be done without the CA school, though I guess the CA school might make it easier). 0 state bars currently have reciprocity with California. Not too long ago after a court battle, one state bar gave a distinguished lawyer reciprocity in a specific state (I want to say MI, but this was a few years back and my memory is hazy), but they made it clear they were not setting this as the standard and going forward they would continue to deny reciprocity and CalBar schools as matter of policy.

You could work in federal courts after passing the California Bar, though!
haven't looked into the commonality, here in Va., of passing, after just reading the law.

I figured that if I pass the gauntlet of the Baby Bar, I have a decent shot, after some additional subjects studied, of passing Va.'s

I do recall a story - and, of course, we hear about these, because they're remarkable - of a gal passing the Calif. bar, after only "reading the law." Awesome. Wish I were that kind of autodidact.
[-] The following 1 user Likes Slobodon's post:
  • cookderosa
Reply
#35
I edited my post a little bit to add more information about using the CalBar schools to become a layer elsewhere.
In Progress: MS Cybersecurity, Georgia Tech (2021?)
BS IT Security, Western Governors University, 2018
BA Psychology, Thomas Edison State University, 2016
AA Sociology, Chaffey College, 2015
IT Industry Certs: CCNA Security, CCNA, CCENT, Linux+,
   LPIC-1, Security+, Network+, Project+, A+, & CIW SDA.

View all of my earned credits on my Omni Transcript!
Visit the DegreeForum Community Wiki!
Reply
#36
All non-ABA California law schools are required to disclose their CalBPC 6061.7 paperwork which includes the attrition rate. They kind of bury it in their website to make it hard to find so that's not cool. They have approximately 20% graduation rate. Of those, only 40% after repeated tries eventually pass the bar exam. If you believe the real final exam is the bar exam, the eventual passing bar rate after repeats is sitting around 8% of the starting class.

https://nwculaw.edu/pdf/BPC_6061.7%20Disclosures.pdf

Law school costs a fortune and the $100k+ that they want for an ABA education (and still nowhere close to 100% pass 1st try) is too much money. But $15k for an 8% chance doesn't sound too good either.
TESU BA CS and Math (graduated December 2016)
Reply
#37
Don't forget that the first year dropout rates of those non-ABA schools are a whopping 90%. So the actual bar pass rate is something around 0.22% when you account for them (I did the numbers a few years back in this thread above). Slobodon has passed this benchmark, though, at least.
In Progress: MS Cybersecurity, Georgia Tech (2021?)
BS IT Security, Western Governors University, 2018
BA Psychology, Thomas Edison State University, 2016
AA Sociology, Chaffey College, 2015
IT Industry Certs: CCNA Security, CCNA, CCENT, Linux+,
   LPIC-1, Security+, Network+, Project+, A+, & CIW SDA.

View all of my earned credits on my Omni Transcript!
Visit the DegreeForum Community Wiki!
Reply
#38
(02-09-2019, 10:13 AM)jsd Wrote: Don't forget that the first year dropout rates of those non-ABA schools are a whopping 90%. So the actual bar pass rate is something around 0.22% when you account for them (I did the numbers a few years back in this thread above). Slobodon has passed this benchmark, though, at least.

that's exactly the kind of thing that motivates many people
Jennifer
10-year member

MS Applied Nutrition, 2014 Canisius College, NY
Premed/Prenursing Sciences, 2011 Ocean County College, NJ
BA Social Science, 2008 Thomas Edison State University, NJ
AA General Studies, 2008 Thomas Edison State University, NJ
AOS Culinary Arts,1990 Culinary Institute of America, NY

Homeschooling for College Credit
Reply
#39
I'd say about 0.22% of them, roughly Smile
In Progress: MS Cybersecurity, Georgia Tech (2021?)
BS IT Security, Western Governors University, 2018
BA Psychology, Thomas Edison State University, 2016
AA Sociology, Chaffey College, 2015
IT Industry Certs: CCNA Security, CCNA, CCENT, Linux+,
   LPIC-1, Security+, Network+, Project+, A+, & CIW SDA.

View all of my earned credits on my Omni Transcript!
Visit the DegreeForum Community Wiki!
[-] The following 1 user Likes jsd's post:
  • mysonx3
Reply
#40
(02-09-2019, 10:13 AM)jsd Wrote: Don't forget that the first year dropout rates of those non-ABA schools are a whopping 90%. So the actual bar pass rate is something around 0.22% when you account for them (I did the numbers a few years back in this thread above). Slobodon has passed this benchmark, though, at least.

I saw a documentary about this about 20 years ago. Basically, schools were being somewhat unethical by accepting practically anyone. Many have no idea about the difficulty. I think they were accepting people who had barely passed college courses.
Working on second TESU degree. 
First Masters complete.
TESU BSBA (with ASNSM) in March 2018.
Reply


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Kids Who Watch Sesame Street Perform Better in School sanantone 4 170 03-14-2019, 09:36 AM
Last Post: sanantone
  Spain Park High School Students sanantone 1 210 03-11-2019, 12:30 PM
Last Post: cookderosa
  Lambda School sanantone 5 241 01-13-2019, 08:37 PM
Last Post: dfrecore
  Physician Assistant School Jesusfreak97 0 179 01-08-2019, 06:24 PM
Last Post: Jesusfreak97
  T.M. Landry Prep School Engaged in Abuse and Fraud sanantone 13 368 12-09-2018, 12:49 PM
Last Post: cookderosa
  Personality types and those who go back to school Ideas 25 1,108 06-18-2018, 06:18 AM
Last Post: Life_One
  Seemed like a good deal, Name Brand assoc. School low tuition Unv. of Ark. but not frank.f.franky 9 976 06-17-2018, 03:39 PM
Last Post: elbebopkid
  Think I found a discount list High_Order1 4 468 05-01-2018, 05:11 PM
Last Post: cookderosa
  This site now looks like an old school BBS on my computer. ELSADDIQ 6 1,244 08-03-2017, 08:10 PM
Last Post: dfrecore
  Online High School Internships keepsingin 3 723 07-03-2017, 06:48 AM
Last Post: cookderosa

Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)