Armour College

[sanantone]

Private security and policing is undergoing a transformation. Unarmed guards are going away.

Not all security is as sanantone describes, but it's what people envision when they think 'security'.

The reason employers ask for law enforcement or military experience / credentials is because there is no real security guard college path. Criminal justice degrees are useless.

I have always been a forward thinker in education in my career field. I'd like a painless as possible, low-cost two year degree with the word security in it. Maybe a diploma, now that I think about it. It makes sense to me, and it makes sense to others in my culture, rounding out my academic credentials.

If all you see it as is a low-paying, simple job, none of what I say is going to make any sense to you.

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There is an industry certificate for hospital security guards.

Sorry I missed this.

You're right, there is a credential for professional hospital guards. There's also one for hospitality guards, and a general one for protection officers, too. It's a great study in how things change. Few know or assign weight to the protection officer certification, but most JACHO hospitals recognize the hospital ones.

As time goes on, the need for professionally educated guards will grow, and not simply military or law enforcement rehashes. It's coming; I wish I had the time and resources to be in on the ground level of it. (shrugs) Maybe I will...

99% of security jobs are the way I described. Most security openings are for unarmed guards, so these positions aren't going away anytime soon. Even if you do work armed security, you usually only need a week of training, and the pay is still low.

The reason why the specialized security jobs require law enforcement or military experience is because they're dangerous and/or require protecting high-value assets. You need extensive, hands-on training and experience to be able to do these jobs. This is training you cannot possibly receive in an online degree program. You can't even receive this training in an on-campus program unless it's integrated with a community college police academy. There is a reason why police academies are not offered online. There are only one or two partially distance-learning police academies in the country, but they only qualify you to work in those states, and the programs are not even close to being 100% online. You still need extensive, hands-on training.

I worked in the security industry for about 6 years. I spent almost 4 of those years as an armed officer. I was a supervisor for 3 years. I worked for 3 of the largest 4 security companies in the country mostly on government contracts. If there is any field that I'm qualified to give career advice on, it is definitely security. 

You are not going to be on the level of a cop or a combat veteran with an online associates degree in security. That is a fact. You don't even need experience in the field to know that. It's common sense. If you insist on wasting your time and money, then that is your prerogative.

It makes absolutely no sense to say that criminal justice degrees are useless and turn around and say that a security guard degree will somehow be useful. I can guarantee you that there are a thousand times more criminal justice degrees in the security industry than these almost non-existent security guard degrees. As a matter of fact, G4S offers higher-level security jobs that require an associates in criminal justice if you don't have law enforcement or military experience. They aren't asking for security guard degrees. G4S is one of the biggest federal government contractors.

I worked with many former hospital security officers. The hospital certification is not new. It's not difficult to obtain. You only need a GED or high school diploma and some security experience to get a hospital job.

Security management benefits from education. Security guards guard things. They are limited by law on what they can do. You only need an IQ of 80 to be a security guard.

[BigPoppa]

I know a lot about the security guard world, and security guard degrees aren't a thing.

never mind

[boalex207]

I know a lot about the security guard world, and security guard degrees aren't a thing.

Correct.

Also, if you spend some time in their website, they aren't even consistent with their spelling of the name of the school, i.e. Armour/Armor.

Hard pass for me.

[High_Order1]

99% of security jobs are the way I described. Most security openings are for unarmed guards, so these positions aren't going away anytime soon. Even if you do work armed security, you usually only need a week of training, and the pay is still low.

The reason why the specialized security jobs require law enforcement or military experience is because they're dangerous and/or require protecting high-value assets. You need extensive, hands-on training and experience to be able to do these jobs. This is training you cannot possibly receive in an online degree program. You can't even receive this training in an on-campus program unless it's integrated with a community college police academy. There is a reason why police academies are not offered online. There are only one or two partially distance-learning police academies in the country, but they only qualify you to work in those states, and the programs are not even close to being 100% online. You still need extensive, hands-on training.

I worked in the security industry for about 6 years. I spent almost 4 of those years as an armed officer. I was a supervisor for 3 years. I worked for 3 of the largest 4 security companies in the country mostly on government contracts. If there is any field that I'm qualified to give career advice on, it is definitely security. 

You are not going to be on the level of a cop or a combat veteran with an online associates degree in security. That is a fact. You don't even need experience in the field to know that. It's common sense. If you insist on wasting your time and money, then that is your prerogative.

It makes absolutely no sense to say that criminal justice degrees are useless and turn around and say that a security guard degree will somehow be useful. I can guarantee you that there are a thousand times more criminal justice degrees in the security industry than these almost non-existent security guard degrees. As a matter of fact, G4S offers higher-level security jobs that require an associates in criminal justice if you don't have law enforcement or military experience. They aren't asking for security guard degrees. G4S is one of the biggest federal government contractors.

I worked with many former hospital security officers. The hospital certification is not new. It's not difficult to obtain. You only need a GED or high school diploma and some security experience to get a hospital job.

Security management benefits from education. Security guards guard things. They are limited by law on what they can do. You only need an IQ of 80 to be a security guard.

Quoted for posterity.

"99% of security jobs are as I described."  - That's your opinion.

"these positions aren't going away anytime soon." - again, your opinion. Unarmed, so-called 'warm body' posts are going to take a massive hit as older buildings have to start complying with new environmental regulations. The same network that controls heat and lighting can also unlock doors, take video and remotely serve it, and call for help when things break - the bread and butter of unarmed guards. It's not just robot guards. In my opinion, unarmed guards task slid from night watchmen to concierge operations.

It will be more cost effective to replace those guards with a smart thermostat that locks and unlocks doors. No wait, it's not just my opinion; it's the opinion of several security organizations. Your beloved G4S is gobbling up tech companies - place a bet why.

"The reason why the specialized security jobs require law enforcement or military experience is because they're dangerous and/or require protecting high-value assets." - Yet, you can become a Federal agent with just a degree. Time after time I have seen people with degrees trump people with real world, current experience in protective operations.

Case in point:

"As a matter of fact, G4S offers higher-level security jobs that require an associates in criminal justice if you don't have law enforcement or military experience."  That's you, by the way, making my point.

"You need extensive, hands-on training and experience to be able to do these jobs."  - Here's a funny thing. Federal safety and health regulations require training of employees. I know of few Tier 1 / Tier 2 security jobs that don't do their own in-house training before they turn people loose on their contracts. The instructor at G4S told my class, "I don't care where you were or what you did, here's how we want it done." Not to denigrate people with prior skill sets, however; they aren't the deciding factor in hiring.

The rest of your stuff just kinda flip flops.

Example:  "You still need extensive, hands-on training." "You only need an IQ of 80 to be a security guard."  I hope that you see that this means you, even you, recognize there are two types of guards, and one type requires more training than a 'week'.

"You are not going to be on the level of a cop or a combat veteran with an online associates degree in security. That is a fact." - Again, your opinion. I have personally seen, and listened to other officers across the country (and on certain overseas contracts) talking about being put on teams, OR LED, by people without operational experience, just a degree. You are conflating capabilities with what the contract requires. YES, even Federal contracts, like you pointed out. "Prior graduation from a civil law enforcement academy, service in the military special forces, or education in lieu of experience may be substituted..." blah blah blah.

... unless, you mean me, personally. Then, an associates in security is simply one more feather in my cap, that helps me differentiate me from people who may just have law enforcement experience, or just military experience. 

"It makes absolutely no sense to say that criminal justice degrees are useless and turn around and say that a security guard degree will somehow be useful." - from your limited perspective. From the perspective of a guard employer, it is different. I've been talking to company owners across the US. A CJ degree usually is concentrated in police or corrections, neither of which is directly parallel to security.

A security degree would have more value than a criminal justice degree, because it would be more focused on what guards do.

"The hospital certification is not new. It's not difficult to obtain." - No where did you find any one arguing your first point. However, as a rebuttal to your second; in your six years with three companies... you never obtained it. 

This kind of sums up your input to this thread:

"I can guarantee you that there are a thousand times more criminal justice degrees in the security industry than these almost non-existent security guard degrees."

Read that a few times until why I cared to mention it here becomes apparent.

Clearly, even as a former (?) guard supervisor, you can't grasp why there is a push for smarter guards. The contracts for armed guards with some academic education are growing. Armed guards and private policing are going to have some significant changes in the coming years.

You can't make a fair argument against a guard degree, especially in a state with free two-year vocational / college, because you don't have a clue how many people would take it. Lemme clue you in: as more and more communities get fed up with public law enforcement, and start buying private guards and police to patrol their communities, and as government itself continues to sub out security and law enforcement functions at bases, harbors and installations to private guard companies, the need for academically educated guards and managers will do nothing but grow.

Automation and increasing wages in other entry-level fields are going to kill the unarmed guard market. The high-end guard market... it's going to get interesting in the next 5-10 years.

[sanantone]

Quoted for posterity.

"99% of security jobs are as I described."  - That's your opinion.

"these positions aren't going away anytime soon." - again, your opinion. Unarmed, so-called 'warm body' posts are going to take a massive hit as older buildings have to start complying with new environmental regulations. The same network that controls heat and lighting can also unlock doors, take video and remotely serve it, and call for help when things break - the bread and butter of unarmed guards. It's not just robot guards. In my opinion, unarmed guards task slid from night watchmen to concierge operations.

It will be more cost effective to replace those guards with a smart thermostat that locks and unlocks doors. No wait, it's not just my opinion; it's the opinion of several security organizations. Your beloved G4S is gobbling up tech companies - place a bet why.

"The reason why the specialized security jobs require law enforcement or military experience is because they're dangerous and/or require protecting high-value assets." - Yet, you can become a Federal agent with just a degree. Time after time I have seen people with degrees trump people with real world, current experience in protective operations.

Case in point:

"As a matter of fact, G4S offers higher-level security jobs that require an associates in criminal justice if you don't have law enforcement or military experience."  That's you, by the way, making my point.

"You need extensive, hands-on training and experience to be able to do these jobs."  - Here's a funny thing. Federal safety and health regulations require training of employees. I know of few Tier 1 / Tier 2 security jobs that don't do their own in-house training before they turn people loose on their contracts. The instructor at G4S told my class, "I don't care where you were or what you did, here's how we want it done." Not to denigrate people with prior skill sets, however; they aren't the deciding factor in hiring.

The rest of your stuff just kinda flip flops.

Example:  "You still need extensive, hands-on training." "You only need an IQ of 80 to be a security guard."  I hope that you see that this means you, even you, recognize there are two types of guards, and one type requires more training than a 'week'.

"You are not going to be on the level of a cop or a combat veteran with an online associates degree in security. That is a fact." - Again, your opinion. I have personally seen, and listened to other officers across the country (and on certain overseas contracts) talking about being put on teams, OR LED, by people without operational experience, just a degree. You are conflating capabilities with what the contract requires. YES, even Federal contracts, like you pointed out. "Prior graduation from a civil law enforcement academy, service in the military special forces, or education in lieu of experience may be substituted..." blah blah blah.

... unless, you mean me, personally. Then, an associates in security is simply one more feather in my cap, that helps me differentiate me from people who may just have law enforcement experience, or just military experience. 

"It makes absolutely no sense to say that criminal justice degrees are useless and turn around and say that a security guard degree will somehow be useful." - from your limited perspective. From the perspective of a guard employer, it is different. I've been talking to company owners across the US. A CJ degree usually is concentrated in police or corrections, neither of which is directly parallel to security.

A security degree would have more value than a criminal justice degree, because it would be more focused on what guards do.

"The hospital certification is not new. It's not difficult to obtain." - No where did you find any one arguing your first point. However, as a rebuttal to your second; in your six years with three companies... you never obtained it. 

This kind of sums up your input to this thread:

"I can guarantee you that there are a thousand times more criminal justice degrees in the security industry than these almost non-existent security guard degrees."

Read that a few times until why I cared to mention it here becomes apparent.

Clearly, even as a former (?) guard supervisor, you can't grasp why there is a push for smarter guards. The contracts for armed guards with some academic education are growing. Armed guards and private policing are going to have some significant changes in the coming years.

You can't make a fair argument against a guard degree, especially in a state with free two-year vocational / college, because you don't have a clue how many people would take it. Lemme clue you in: as more and more communities get fed up with public law enforcement, and start buying private guards and police to patrol their communities, and as government itself continues to sub out security and law enforcement functions at bases, harbors and installations to private guard companies, the need for academically educated guards and managers will do nothing but grow.

Automation and increasing wages in other entry-level fields are going to kill the unarmed guard market. The high-end guard market... it's going to get interesting in the next 5-10 years.

Where do I even begin?

The FBI hires people without law enforcement training because they have their own academy! They don't just hand you a gun and handcuffs because you have a degree. That argument made absolutely no sense.

However, if you looked closely at who gets preference at the FBI, you will see that nothing related to security degree gets a preference. Law, accounting, and computer science degrees get a preference. If you don't have one of those desirable degrees or language skills, do you know what else gets preference? Law enforcement experience!

First of all, I never said that I don't have the hospital certification. You just made that assumption. However, I never tried to obtain it because I never needed it. I never worked at a hospital. I said that I worked with former hospital security officers. If you want to look credible in a debate, you should read what the person is saying more closely.

Would I trust you as a partner in an active shooter situation just because you took an online security course? Absolutely not! There's a reason why my university created a training facility and hires actors to play the part of shooters. They put police officers through hands-on training.

Wages have mostly been stagnant. Even during the .Com era when one could get a certification and get a high-paying tech job without a degree, there were still security guards. Not everyone has the aptitude for high-paying jobs.

Private companies hire "warm bodies" because it lowers their insurance, and the uniform acts as a deterrent. The reason why a minority of officers are armed is because having them increases liability. Just because some places might get rid of warm bodies and replace them with technology (technology can't spot suspicious people yet or act as a uniformed deterrent) that doesn't mean that there is going to be more demand for security guards with degrees.

For the companies that are serious about security, they often hire police officers because police officers have police powers 24/7 In their jurisdiction.

I worked at a subdivision with million dollar homes. Do you know what they did? They hired a new company that was cheaper, and the guards lost $1 an hour. The job was already low-paying.

Automation actually kills high-skilled jobs in addition to some low-skilled ones. That's why court reporting is a dying profession. The jobs that will survive are ones that can't be done by a computer or robot.

The government hires contractors because it's cheaper! This is the reason why minimum security prisons are contracted. The government doesn't have to pay for benefits, training, and wages that tend to be higher from them. On average, private corrections officers are paid significantly less, receive less training, and gave worse benefits. The government keeps the maximum security prisons in their possession because contractors are not trusted with them.


How did I make your point on G4S? The asked for a criminal justice degree, not a security degree. Do you know how much these upscale security jobs pay? It varies by region and contract, but I've seen pay range from $10-18 per hour with the wages tending to be between those two.

Do you have a citation for the claim that security guard jobs asking for degrees is increasing? I've been looking at BLS for years, and security guard wages have been mostly stagnant.

There is a reason why 75% of police departments do not require degrees. There is a nationwide police shortage. When the economy qualified applicants. If you start requiring degrees, you decrease your applicant pool. If police officers don't need a degree, what makes youu think that security guards will need one? Do you really think that HOAs are going to pay a security guard more than $40,000 per year for having a degree?

[High_Order1]

It was suggested to me to look at your signature block.

I failed to grasp the significance; I see it now. You have an Associates in Security Technology, and are trying to build a defensible dissertation for a Doctorate in... criminal justice.

Through that lens, I now understand why you are so defensive of criminal justice as a pathway. It makes me less understanding of why you have such a visceral reaction to the concept of a degree tuned to what private security does, and the laws and circumstances unique to them are, but considering you hold the very kind of degree I am seeking, I have to allow you more weight on that specific topic.

The remainder of your post:

Two rabbit holes.

- Police and degrees. You're off base there. Without chasing that rabbit, the reason police at the patrol level don't have as much need for a degree is because they get more vocational training. If you kept up with national accreditation, you'd know that degrees for line and up are becoming more mandatory. In fact, that's where the whole criminal justice degree path came from - giving officers a quick path to a degree. That's it. It was never intended for corrections or social workers or the litany of so-called 'criminal justice agencies' that currently exist. Like me, and others on this board, our state police academy classes count for college credit. Those same classes are about worthless in other degree paths. An example of a degree path being cultivated for a specific job.

- corrections. Cost reduction isn't the main driver in many areas for why private corrections exist. But that's not the instant topic. And, it isn't the main reason the Federal government contracts security operations, either.

-other red herring. Why would the FBI grant special preference to an Associates in *anything*?

" Do you really think that HOAs are going to pay a security guard more than $40,000 per year for having a degree? " That's the only interesting part.

I keep saying in this thread, and will continue to say there is a movement afoot. Private security is changing. The increase of mass criminal events and decrease in police presence is driving it. Technology and lack of justification is causing the decline of the unarmed guard. Until something happens, the client expects less, and so that's why you see somalis with no English skills in securitas uniforms. BECAUSE they pay less, and accept less, you get more problems, and when it comes 'go time', bad results.

People are starting to get fed up with this death spiral.

That's why you are seeing more non-traditional clients of guard companies popping up, and that's why you see guards serving in expanding roles, similar to the private police of san franscisco.

The reaction that will create more professional guards with higher educational standards is starting. What will be the actual catalyst, I can't say. But, you and others seem to be stuck on the idea that security=barney with no authority, and that's simply becoming an outdated paradigm.

Why would a person strap on a gun and work section 8 housing making less money than going and making more at a fast food restaurant? Fast food places and walmart have increased their wages for a reason. It is getting harder to fill guard slots for a reason.

Far as the degree:

Up until the late 60's - early 70's in my state, there was no state mandated police academy. Up until the 90's, you didn't have to attend bomb school to be a public safety bomb technician. And in 2018, you don't need a security guard degree to be a professional guard. But it's not going to stay like this, whether you like it or not. The calls for change are internal and external, profit margins of clients and major corporations be dammed.

It is what it is. 

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"How did I make your point on G4S? The asked for a criminal justice degree, not a security degree. "


Sorry I missed this.

You tried to posit that there was no substitute for law enforcement or military experience in upper tier security slots. But, then you said that G4S accepted a degree if a candidate didn't have law enforcement or military experience, clearly demonstrating my point; it's not true. A degree holds a lot of equivalency as far as the ink on the contract (and, subsequent audits) are concerned.

[sanantone]

Actually, people who are familiar with my post history know that I usually advise against getting a criminal justice degree for jobs that don't require degrees i.e. security, law enforcement, and corrections. The security AAS from TESU had no security courses. It was finished with intro CJ and FEMA courses. I only got it because it was free, and I already had the requirements.

I am not off base with higher education in law enforcement. I have written research papers on this. CJ programs were created several decades ago to professionalize law enforcement. However, several decades later, only two states require police officers to have associates degrees, only 25% of large police departments require associates degrees, and only 1% of all police departments require a 4-year degree. Among the departments that do require a degree, most do not require a particular major. They'll accept a degree in basketweaving.

An interesting history on CJ programs, they became known as cop shops. Because of the federal funding that was being offered, colleges started creating CJ programs that lacked academic rigor. CJ programs actually do not do a better job at preparing police officers as evidenced by a study that found that CJ majors did not perform better than other majors in the academy. CJ works better as a human services degree.

Cost reduction is the main reason for privatizing prisons.

Since most security jobs are in the private sector, they're more affected by supply and demand than jobs that are mostly in the public sector. Employers don't pay more because they don't need to, and the pay is in line with the amount of education and training required to do the job.

Even at $9 an hour (this is a real scenario), employing a security force is extremely expensive. This is why most neighborhoods will never be able to hire a group of security officers, let alone, security officers being paid a living wage.

I never said that the FBI grants preference to associates degrees. They require bachelors degrees. I think you need to reread my post.

A lot of security guards do work at Section 8 housing because the armed jobs that pay more (I'm talking $12 or $13 an hour) aren't abundant.

Here we are. It's 2018 and most police departments still don't require degrees. As I already said, they have a hard enough time as it is finding qualified applicants.

Why would anyone go to college to work security for lower pay and benefits when they can go to the police academy, get great benefits, and have job more job security through civil service and union contracts? Security companies lose contracts all the time.

If you knew what G4S' upscale security jobs entailed, you wouldn't equate them to most other security jobs that require military and law enforcement experience. Upscale could mean that you work at a fancy apartment building instead of a poor one, but the position at the poor apartment complex would, in reality, be more difficult. These are stipulations laid out in contracts. If I'm being honest, most of the unarmed sites I worked at were more dangerous than the armed sites. There was no consistency when it came to the jobs that asked for armed security. It really boiled down to how much the client was willing to pay and how much liability they were willing to take on.

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I'm not saying this is true for you, but I've seen it many times with others. When they can't get or keep the job they want, they try to find a substitute and turn it into something it's not. A lot of people work in corrections, security, and parole/probation because they can't get hired as police officers.

I've seen this attitude in the military auxiliaries. There's nothing wrong with looking for alternate ways to serve the community if you can't get into the military, but some people try to advocate for the auxiliaries to receive similar benefits and powers. I'm just thinking, you didn't go through basic training and tech school. You can't do that.