Law School after this…what are the chances?

[Alpha]

I know that being an attorney is not the same as it was, let's say 50 years ago, but I think it's a mistake to tell someone that they will be some sort of failure if they don't attend an elite school.  I think it's a bad message, it runs contrary to one of the most basic principles of this board and it's based on the idea that wealth is the sole measure of success.

[freeloader]

There is a strong correlation between law school rankings and placement of their graduates in BigLaw firms.

https://lawschooli.com/best-law-schools-for-biglaw/

If your sole definition of success as an attorney would be joining a nationally (or internationally) known firm where you will make a lot of money but also end up working 60-80 hours/week and will live in a handful of the largest cities in the county where their offices are located, then  going to one of these law schools is essential.

If you notice on the list included above, BigLaw firms hired from OTHER law schools, just at lower rates. If you go to the top law schools, you can be a below average student and get a BigLaw job. If you go to the 30th or 40th ranked school, realistically you are going to have to be highly ranked in your class, be on journal, and do other things to differentiate yourself.  

As I said before, my wife went to a T25 law school. Out of her circle of friends in her class, she has a few BigLaw attorneys, a couple of state-level judges, a couple of federal prosecutors (assistant US attorneys), many senior associates/junior partners at large regional law firms, a couple of law school professors (both of whom teach at T50 law schools), a number of corporate/in-house council attorneys, some county/state level prosecutors and public defenders, a couple of attorneys who work in non-profit/advocacy, and perhaps 2 or 3 sole practitioners.  Two of her friends had federal judicial clerkships, 1 of those people clerked for both a US district and US Circuit judge.  My wife interviewed for federal judicial clerkships at both the district and circuit levels, but was not selected for one.

I think if you look at almost any of the people who went to law school with my wife (and were in her circle), you would say they were successful. Are they all making $200,000+ per year at a BigLaw firm?  No, they are not. But then…

BigLaw firms are shaped like a pyramid—lots of entry-level associates up to a small handful of managing partners. If your sole definition of success is being hired by a BigLaw firm, what happens when you work there for perhaps 5 years and it is made clear to you that you are not going to be on the partnership track and need to start pursuing other options?  Pretty good chance you end up in one of the jobs of a type held by the majority of my wife’s classmates… just something to think about.

One other note about geography: the majority of top law schools and BigLaw firms are concentrated in the NorthEast/Mid-Atlantic, Great Lakes region, and California. Higher ranked law schools have disproportionate influence in these areas. If you are outside these areas, the top law schools will have much less influence.

One interesting point related to this, something my wife and my father-in-law (t20 law school grad noticed): they practice outside of those regions that I noted above. The great majority of state prosecutors, public defenders and JUDGES went to the 2 best law schools in the respective states.  They all know one another and have been working together, in many cases, for decades.  When the judge has to decide a motion, whether a piece of evidence is admissible, or some other issue and it is basically a coin flip, who tends to “win” on that issue?  More often than not, according to them, it’s not the “fancy, overly smart, stuck up lawyer who went to an expensive law school and who thinks they are better than everybody else”.

FWIW, BigLaw firms tend not to do a lot of trials and when they do, they are handled by senior attorneys.  The top law schools don’t focus on preparing their graduates to actually function in court. My wife, for instance, had about a week’s worth of “practical” law training over the course of 3 years of study. When she got instead was a LOT of writing experience, since that is most of what associates do at BigLaw firms. She had friends from undergrad who went to lower ranked law schools who had far more practical training (and actual experience) as a lawyer.  My wife, for instance, had been a licensed and practicing attorney for around 7 years before she actually spoke in court. But, she had written a lot, including preparing multiple briefs for appeals in front of state Supreme Courts and federal circuit courts. But, again, the more senior attorneys got to do the actual oral arguments. She didn’t even get to go watch, because that would not have been a good use of her time, better to be back at the office writing.

[LevelUP]

if you can't get into a t14 law school then don't bother              
you'll most likely end up being an ambulance chaser or making late night tv commercials "have you been injured by asbestos?"

I would never tell someone don't bother to attend a particular college on the sole basis that it's not ranked high.  That's wrong on so many levels. 

The label "your school isn't good enough" has been going on for a long time. For example, I could argue that Harvard sucks because its robotics program is far inferior to MIT.

One other note about geography: the majority of top law schools and BigLaw firms are concentrated in the NorthEast/Mid-Atlantic, Great Lakes region, and California. Higher ranked law schools have disproportionate influence in these areas. If you are outside these areas, the top law schools will have much less influence.

You made some good points.

If your goal is to work as a lawyer in your hometown in Piemont North Dakota, it probably won't matter if you graduated from a top law firm on the east coast.

I see these threads all the time, "these students earn more from this college" and none factor in location as a primary reason why they earn more. 

I could startup a college in San Fransico and literary have all drugged out homeless people as teachers.  Those teachers could do nothing but shoot up heroin and fentanyl all day in front of their students leaving students with no choice but to learn on their own 100% of the time.  And you know what?  Those graduates would earn probably double than those that graduated from some small town in the midwest on the sole basis that jobs pay a lot in the San Fransisco area.

And as far as earning more, if you want to earn the most money, you have to go into business for yourself.

[freeloader]

if you can't get into a t14 law school then don't bother              
you'll most likely end up being an ambulance chaser or making late night tv commercials "have you been injured by asbestos?"

I would never tell someone don't bother to attend a particular college on the sole basis that it's not ranked high.  That's wrong on so many levels. 

The label "your school isn't good enough" has been going on for a long time. For example, I could argue that Harvard sucks because its robotics program is far inferior to MIT.

One other note about geography: the majority of top law schools and BigLaw firms are concentrated in the NorthEast/Mid-Atlantic, Great Lakes region, and California. Higher ranked law schools have disproportionate influence in these areas. If you are outside these areas, the top law schools will have much less influence.

You made some good points.

If your goal is to work as a lawyer in your hometown in Piemont North Dakota, it probably won't matter if you graduated from a top law firm on the east coast.

I see these threads all the time, "these students earn more from this college" and none factor in location as a primary reason why they earn more. 

I could startup a college in San Fransico and literary have all drugged out homeless people as teachers.  Those teachers could do nothing but shoot up heroin and fentanyl all day in front of their students leaving students with no choice but to learn on their own 100% of the time.  And you know what?  Those graduates would earn probably double than those that graduated from some small town in the midwest on the sole basis that jobs pay a lot in the San Fransisco area.

And as far as earning more, if you want to earn the most money, you have to go into business for yourself.

That’s true. You could also start a college in West Virginia, New Hampshire, or Kentucky, but your teachers would probably all die of drug overdoses since those states lead the nation in drug overdose deaths.  Good thing about starting in California is that they are well below average in drug deaths, drug addicts per capita, and well above average in services for addicts, including rehab. Good thing you are going to make such a sensible choice, by starting your college in California!