Natural Sciences or Biology - Possible?

[cookderosa]

Dfrecore uploaded a spreadsheet here: https://www.degreeforum.net/mybb/Thread-...or-Biology

I don't know if there's much difference between the NS at APU and the NSM at TESU? In terms of the end degree. I thought you did not want NSM/NS. Otherwise if you want the cheapest and easiest, go for NSM/NS.

Thanks, Ive been checking out this plan and Sanantone's older plan.

I was under the impression that the NSM degree was a Liberal Studies degree with a concentration. I figured this would not be as strong as an actual degree in Biology or Natural Science, or Env Science. Am I wrong? I honestly don't know that much, I'm just trying to soak in as much info as possible.

If so, the Liberal Studies Natural Science/Math (idk what to call that, BALSNSM?) would be a lot easier.

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"I really want to pursue Environmental Science or Biology, but it looks like this is hard to do. "

Yes- but it can be done.

"Also, I realize that graduate schools may not accept you if you didn't take labs in person. (Is it possible to take just the labs at a local CC and be alright?)"

This is a myth. I'm sure there are *some graduate schools that will stipulate distance labs not being accepted, but so what? There are thousands of graduate programs, including medical school, that doesn't have that requirement. That's placing a lot of pressure on a degree that will otherwise check all your boxes.

"TESU has BALS with concentration in Natural Sciences/Mathematics but I am not sure this degree will hold weight with employers in the field..."

Which field will you be working in?

"I may be able to take a couple classes through the school's online courses, but obviously trying to save as much money that I don't have as possible."

I believe you'll find many people here who place cost at the top of their priority list too, and while lab sciences do cost more, the way you balance that out is by saving as much money on every non-lab-science course you take.  My lab science sequence cost $10,000 and I did it after my TESU degree. Both my AA and BA from TESU combined didn't cost $10k, so money isn't the only thing you have to consider- if you need the classes you need the classes.  It would have been more efficient and more cost effective to take them inside my degree, but woulda coulda shoulda....
The best plan is the one you can finish.  Hoping to impress every potential future naysayer isn't going to happen. Mark your path and go full speed.  Worrying about every potential contingency is a sure fire way to undermine your motivation.  
Science sequences take a long time, no question, so why not get started with something you know you need and move from there.  General Bio 1 w/Lab through your community college is as good a place as any to start.  Summer session is probably starting now.

Thanks for the reply. I want to work in the field possibly fish & wildlife, survey type of stuff. I know there will be lab work too.

Good to know about the labs, now I am wondering about the Nat Sci/Math concentration for the TESU Liberal Studies... I mean one could always go back later to complete the necessary requirements for a Biology degree afterwards, correct? Say, when I have some more money - or am I wrong on this?

Yes, but that's probably not as efficient as getting the TESU degree and follow it up with grad school instead of a second BA. I realize grad school is "harder" in general, but I didn't find it "so much" harder than my upper level undergrad work- I earned A's in most of my classes, even those at Harvard.

A second BA at TESU is 24 credits I think (someone else might know) so figure 8 upper level new credits vs 30 credits in grad school. 8 classes vs 10 and the cost is about the same. My time and money says 1 fast/cheap BA followed by 1 slow and expensive MS.

EDIT to add: and look what I found!? Wanna be a guinea pig? Micromasters --> HES Masters
https://www.extension.harvard.edu/academ...am-pathway

[Ideas]

Hi Dan, what’s your budget and rough timeframe you would like to complete the degree? Do you have any transfer credits? Do you work and does the workplace have tuition assistance or tuition reimbursement?

BTW, you are in Seattle, we don’t have much online options in the CC level, I would go with the following CC in other states for specific sciences.  NMJC for Biology II and Lab, Ocean County for Organic Chem I + Lab, OC II + Lab.   The rest of the LL can be done with SL or Study.com...

You only need 5 UL Biology classes, one of them can be done by UEXCEL.  You can take 4 Biology UL at APU and you’re done with the BA Biology at TESU. Total cost may exceed $10K, but having said that, you can try to get an extra Associate or two.

Biology seems harder to me than your post implies. Unless they've changed it. From what I know, it needs Precalc, Physics I and II with labs, Chem I and II with labs, and Cell Bio too. In addition, I think that Genetics and Microbiology (both required) are usually LL (as well as all the other sciences mentioned), so it's harder to find UL.

[Jonathan Whatley]

EDIT to add:  and look what I found!?  Wanna be a guinea pig?  Micromasters --> HES Masters
https://www.extension.harvard.edu/academ...am-pathway

Teeing off of Jennifer's link, Harvard Extension School and Harvard Summer School have a few things going on distance learning environmental science students might want to check out.

• Extension School Courses
• Summer School Courses

There's lots under BIOS, and ENVR (Environmental Studies but some courses are a good bet to transfer to an environmental science program – check with your receiving institution), and related courses in other departments including ECON E-1661 Environmental Economics.

Most Extension and Summer courses are 4 semester hours, compared to 3 at most schools. For many Extension and Summer courses, you can choose either undergraduate or graduate credit when you enroll, and workloads are different. Note that if you register for a course for graduate credit before completing your bachelor's degree, it won't apply to a future master's degree.

For something after a bachelor's, you might look at the Extension School's low-res Master of Liberal Arts in Sustainability or low-res Master of Liberal Arts in Development Practice. There are related graduate certificates that can be stacked towards a master's, or taken just on their own.

The Harvard Extension Student Environmental Club is pretty great, and you can connect with them by email and social media.

[sanantone]

Harvard's programs are more environmental studies than environmental science. In case the OP is unaware, Harvard's master's programs require about three or four hybrid or ground courses, so you have to be on campus for a period of time.

If you want a hard science graduate program instead of an interdisciplinary social studies program, there are quite a few schools offering online master's degrees in environmental science, biology and its various subfields, and environmental engineering.

[Ideas]

I was under the impression that the NSM degree was a Liberal Studies degree with a concentration. I figured this would not be as strong as an actual degree in Biology or Natural Science, or Env Science. Am I wrong? I honestly don't know that much, I'm just trying to soak in as much info as possible.

Yes, it's a big difference. The concentration is 18 credits in "Natural Sciences and Mathematics" and the degree reads "Liberal Studies". The Biology degree is 3 credits in math plus 54 credits in science (all biology-related, except the 8 physics - in my opinion). In addition, the biology capstone is in biology, and the BALS capstone may be unrelated to science.

However, if you need faster and/or cheaper, I would say definitely don't do biology. Personally, if I had to start undergrad again, I think I could complete the BALS-NSM (minus capstone) in like 3 months, but would probably need at least 16 months to do the Biology credits (and I'd still have to do the capstone).

(Personally I think Environmental Science would be easy compared to Biology, though it depends on the specific schools.)

[sanantone]

Keep in mind that graduate school options will be limited if you don't complete biology I and II, chemistry I and II, and organic chemistry I and II all with labs. Some programs will want biochemistry, physics, and/or microbiology. The environmental engineering programs typically want physics and calculus.

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I finessed my way into University of Florida's MS in Microbiology program by having taken microbiology and several other biology courses for my AS in NSM in Biology from TESU. Other schools are stricter.

[Ideas]

In my opinion, returning for the biology degree is a decent plan, although it does get a little harder and more expensive if you "used up" some of the biology courses in your first degree, since you need the 24 new biology credits.

I agree with bjcheung that going for a Masters in biology instead isn't that much harder, but in my opinion it's not great. Not sure you're even considering it at this point, but my reasoning is:

- At the grad level, at most schools (not competency-based schools), you typically complete credits at about half the pace of undergrad credits, so even though the numbers of credits are not too different, the speed is. You may be able to find a school that allows a faster pace, however. (For example, I did 24 undergrad credits in a semester, actually more, but a grad school only allowed me to take 6 grad credits in a semester. Their semesters were accelerated, but still, it's half pace or less for me.)

- Most grad program admissions require core undergrad courses in biology, so you'd need a semester (or possibly more) to get those done, making the Masters take longer.

- Employers will want to know that you did the core courses, and I feel that most grad programs won't have the breadth of foundational courses like Chem II with Lab, Organic Chem II with Lab, Cell Bio, Microbio, Genetics, Anatomy & Physiology, etc.

- Some grad programs have a more difficult research project (than an undergrad capstone).

- Grad credits cost more per credit.

- Grad credits often take a full semester.

- It may be harder to get a good GPA in the grad classes since a lot of classmates would have an undergrad degree in biology.

But, of course, there are arguments to be made for skipping the undergrad.

[sanantone]

TESU and some other schools won't let you earn two related degrees. Earning the BSLS in NSM could ruin your chances of being accepted to an undergraduate program in biology.

My question is...what would you do with a BSLS in NSM? It could potentially be a waste of money. You wouldn't have taken enough science courses in one area to be competent in most life science jobs. You can elect to take more science courses than required, but you could have just done that for a BA/BS in Biology. I've learned that, in some cases, taking cheaper, faster shortcuts end up being more costly and time-consuming in the end.

For example, let's say you took a bunch of ACE credits in science. These ACE courses are cheap and fast, but what if every graduate program you're interested in requires science prerequisites from a regionally accredited school? Or, what if they require labs that you couldn't get with the ACE courses, so you have to go back and retake the classes with labs because you couldn't find standalone labs?

[Ideas]

TESU and some other schools won't let you earn two related degrees. Earning the BSLS in NSM could ruin your chances of being accepted to an undergraduate program in biology.

My question is...what would you do with a BSLS in NSM? It could potentially be a waste of money. You wouldn't have taken enough science courses in one area to be competent in most life science jobs. You can elect to take more science courses than required, but you could have just done that for a BA/BS in Biology.

I think the BALS NSM is a bad option too.

Possibly do a quick BALS in something else then immediately start taking the biology courses toward the next degree, BA Biology. You can then possibly get some entry-level jobs since you can say you've done 12 (or whatever) credits in biology and maybe get some tuition reimbursement.

This is my route. I did the quick BSBA (so I could get the Masters quickest) but now I'm doing the undergrad degree that I really want.

I've learned that, in some cases, taking cheaper, faster shortcuts end up being more expensive and timely in the end.

Yep, but I think most people cannot understand this until they've already taken a false shortcut and regret it.

[sanantone]

I've learned that, in some cases, taking cheaper, faster shortcuts end up being more expensive and time-consuming in the end.

Yep, but I think most people cannot understand this until they've already taken a false shortcut and regret it.

I took the Biology CLEP. I earned eight credits at one of the community colleges I attended, but TESU only granted six credits. I needed Biology II with lab to complete the ASNSM in Biology, so I took the NMJC course since I couldn't find a standalone lab. At the time, NMJC's course description wasn't clear, but it is now stated on their website that the biology course I took is for non-science majors. TESU didn't care, but most other schools do. If I needed biology I and II for a healthcare or science program, I would, in essence, have to complete Biology II a third time since the CLEP likely wouldn't count for lab credits.

That's another thing the OP should watch out for. NMJC rarely offers its "for science majors" biology courses online. They're normally hybrid courses.