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The Great Debate - Free College For All
#21
I'm sure I will appear as the odd ball but.... what we need is some type of Universal Basic Income (UBI). I don't mean 5k a month or adding the UBI onto welfare program's. Cut the welfare programs and roll those into a UBI that is distributed to the people and they use it as they see fit. The MIT review had a few articles on the pros and con's of a UBI, and while it wasn't perfect it helped many of the recipients attend night school and afford transportation. They lost their welfare in exchange for the UBI but it made a difference in their life. That allowed them to make change.

Why talk about UBI on a thread about free College? Having free college is part of the symptom and not the answer in my opinion. When we look at the overall issues and problems of the USA, it's all about money.

Money is power and people need some kind of power to do something with their lives. With welfare you aren't given the freedom to make your own decisions or are limited to what you can do with that aid.

The current system is unsustainable as is and eventually will collapse if we will not do something about it. Everyone complains about tax's but no one realises our infrastructure is falling apart along with everything else, we are living on borrowed time. If we all don't work together, I'm not sure what the landscape will be in 30 years but it won't be pretty.


I'm in a hurry, forgive my typos and lack of sources I'll add those later. Moral of the story, we need systems that work for all of us and not just a few. Free college, eliminating your student loans, and all of that is a symptom and not the cause.
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#22
(06-28-2019, 03:18 PM)Life_One Wrote: I'm sure I will appear as the odd ball but.... what we need is some type of Universal Basic Income (UBI). I don't mean 5k a month or adding the UBI onto welfare program's. Cut the welfare programs and roll those into a UBI that is distributed to the people and they use it as they see fit. The MIT review had a few articles on the pros and con's of a UBI, and while it wasn't perfect it helped many of the recipients attend night school and afford transportation. They lost their welfare in exchange for the UBI but it made a difference in their life. That allowed them to make change.

Why talk about UBI on a thread about free College? Having free college is part of the symptom and not the answer in my opinion. When we look at the overall issues and problems of the USA, it's all about money.

Money is power and people need some kind of power to do something with their lives. With welfare you aren't given the freedom to make your own decisions or are limited to what you can do with that aid.

The current system is unsustainable as is and eventually will collapse if we will not do something about it. Everyone complains about tax's but no one realises our infrastructure is falling apart along with everything else, we are living on borrowed time. If we all don't work together, I'm not sure what the landscape will be in 30 years but it won't be pretty.


I'm in a hurry, forgive my typos and lack of sources I'll add those later. Moral of the story, we need systems that work for all of us and not just a few. Free college, eliminating your student loans, and all of that is a symptom and not the cause.

The problems with a UBI is that 1) you'll give it to everyone, even those that don't need it (I certainly don't, my husband earns the money in our household and we've been doing without an income from me for 17 years; my kids will graduate and turn 18, and we will support them while they're in college and earning part-time income); and 2) the government will eventually start adding back welfare programs for people, and we'll be right back where we started PLUS giving everyone a UBI.  I think it's unsustainable.

Oh yeah, and my 16yo, when hearing about a UBI said "if I knew I was getting that when I turned 18, I'd immediately quit high school." I said "you'd already be graduated." And she said "No, I'd quit NOW.  If I don't need to earn a living, then I don't need an education, so I wouldn't go to school NOW!  What's the point?"

If she, who is my hard-working, nose-to-the-grindstone kid who is not entitled thinks like that, you can only imagine what other kids/adults would think.  No thanks.  I'd like my kid to have to work, get educated, and work some more - to have purpose in life, not think that the government is going to solve ANY of her problems, and know that she needs to work to get the things she wants.  Even if it's a struggle sometimes.  Even if she can't afford a big house or fancy car.  None of that is important.  But to live off of welfare for the rest of her life is NOT a good plan (and that's what a UBI is, call it what you want but ultimately it's living off of the government).
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#23
(06-29-2019, 03:12 AM)dfrecore Wrote:
(06-28-2019, 03:18 PM)Life_One Wrote: I'm sure I will appear as the odd ball but.... what we need is some type of Universal Basic Income (UBI). I don't mean 5k a month or adding the UBI onto welfare program's. Cut the welfare programs and roll those into a UBI that is distributed to the people and they use it as they see fit. The MIT review had a few articles on the pros and con's of a UBI, and while it wasn't perfect it helped many of the recipients attend night school and afford transportation. They lost their welfare in exchange for the UBI but it made a difference in their life. That allowed them to make change.

Why talk about UBI on a thread about free College? Having free college is part of the symptom and not the answer in my opinion. When we look at the overall issues and problems of the USA, it's all about money.

Money is power and people need some kind of power to do something with their lives. With welfare you aren't given the freedom to make your own decisions or are limited to what you can do with that aid.

The current system is unsustainable as is and eventually will collapse if we will not do something about it. Everyone complains about tax's but no one realises our infrastructure is falling apart along with everything else, we are living on borrowed time. If we all don't work together, I'm not sure what the landscape will be in 30 years but it won't be pretty.


I'm in a hurry, forgive my typos and lack of sources I'll add those later. Moral of the story, we need systems that work for all of us and not just a few. Free college, eliminating your student loans, and all of that is a symptom and not the cause.

The problems with a UBI is that 1) you'll give it to everyone, even those that don't need it (I certainly don't, my husband earns the money in our household and we've been doing without an income from me for 17 years; my kids will graduate and turn 18, and we will support them while they're in college and earning part-time income); and 2) the government will eventually start adding back welfare programs for people, and we'll be right back where we started PLUS giving everyone a UBI.  I think it's unsustainable.

Oh yeah, and my 16yo, when hearing about a UBI said "if I knew I was getting that when I turned 18, I'd immediately quit high school." I said "you'd already be graduated." And she said "No, I'd quit NOW.  If I don't need to earn a living, then I don't need an education, so I wouldn't go to school NOW!  What's the point?"

If she, who is my hard-working, nose-to-the-grindstone kid who is not entitled thinks like that, you can only imagine what other kids/adults would think.  No thanks.  I'd like my kid to have to work, get educated, and work some more - to have purpose in life, not think that the government is going to solve ANY of her problems, and know that she needs to work to get the things she wants.  Even if it's a struggle sometimes.  Even if she can't afford a big house or fancy car.  None of that is important.  But to live off of welfare for the rest of her life is NOT a good plan (and that's what a UBI is, call it what you want but ultimately it's living off of the government).

Those are all good points and I'll address them. 

When I'm talking about UBI I'm talking $1,500 a month with no other welfare programs. I'll use the $1,500 for the rest of my arguments. 

I'm fine giving it to everyone even people that don't want or need it. There could be an option where you can decline the aid and receive a tax credit or some other incentive. With your husband working and supporting your family wouldn't it be nice to save that money or earn a tax credit? What would you have been able to do differently if that was the case? These are all Hypotheticals but you get my point.

Even if the government changed something down the line and made it more expensive or not as worthwhile that's not a reason to kill off a good program if it works correctly. That's like killing food stamps because some person traded them for drugs. The people who need the food stamps legitimately still need them. 

About your 16-year-old that's a tough one. I would say the decision to quit school would be on you and them but it would give them an opportunity they did not have. In my examples the UBI only covered those 18 and above and I did not specify that in my argument. Which I should have.

Your last point, I understand it but I disagree with the premise. Having a UBI provide the $1500 a month would not disincentive your kids from working hard or not working. You still need to work if you want more than $1500 a month. They could use that money to start a business, they could use that money to look for meaningful work and not be stuck in a dead-end job. They could travel around the USA in a VW bus and surf some waves. The point is, it will give some people opportunities they would not have had. 

I would also argue "Work" should never be your purpose in life unless it's a labor of love and you truly love it. Not that you shouldn't be proud of what you do but it should never be your "Whole" identity. If you ask 9 out of 10 people who they are they will answer with what they do for a living. The truth is most of us don't have choices and those of us that do, we are lucky. 


https://www.technologyreview.com/s/61141...ada-style/

https://economics.mit.edu/files/15434
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 Developing Effective Teams, The Essentials of Managing Conflict. 2 Credit hours
The Institutes. 312N-H Ethics, 2 credit hours.
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#24
(06-29-2019, 03:12 AM)dfrecore Wrote:
(06-28-2019, 03:18 PM)Life_One Wrote: I'm sure I will appear as the odd ball but.... what we need is some type of Universal Basic Income (UBI). I don't mean 5k a month or adding the UBI onto welfare program's. Cut the welfare programs and roll those into a UBI that is distributed to the people and they use it as they see fit. The MIT review had a few articles on the pros and con's of a UBI, and while it wasn't perfect it helped many of the recipients attend night school and afford transportation. They lost their welfare in exchange for the UBI but it made a difference in their life. That allowed them to make change.

Why talk about UBI on a thread about free College? Having free college is part of the symptom and not the answer in my opinion. When we look at the overall issues and problems of the USA, it's all about money.

Money is power and people need some kind of power to do something with their lives. With welfare you aren't given the freedom to make your own decisions or are limited to what you can do with that aid.

The current system is unsustainable as is and eventually will collapse if we will not do something about it. Everyone complains about tax's but no one realises our infrastructure is falling apart along with everything else, we are living on borrowed time. If we all don't work together, I'm not sure what the landscape will be in 30 years but it won't be pretty.


I'm in a hurry, forgive my typos and lack of sources I'll add those later. Moral of the story, we need systems that work for all of us and not just a few. Free college, eliminating your student loans, and all of that is a symptom and not the cause.

The problems with a UBI is that 1) you'll give it to everyone, even those that don't need it (I certainly don't, my husband earns the money in our household and we've been doing without an income from me for 17 years; my kids will graduate and turn 18, and we will support them while they're in college and earning part-time income); and 2) the government will eventually start adding back welfare programs for people, and we'll be right back where we started PLUS giving everyone a UBI.  I think it's unsustainable.

Oh yeah, and my 16yo, when hearing about a UBI said "if I knew I was getting that when I turned 18, I'd immediately quit high school." I said "you'd already be graduated." And she said "No, I'd quit NOW.  If I don't need to earn a living, then I don't need an education, so I wouldn't go to school NOW!  What's the point?"

If she, who is my hard-working, nose-to-the-grindstone kid who is not entitled thinks like that, you can only imagine what other kids/adults would think.  No thanks.  I'd like my kid to have to work, get educated, and work some more - to have purpose in life, not think that the government is going to solve ANY of her problems, and know that she needs to work to get the things she wants.  Even if it's a struggle sometimes.  Even if she can't afford a big house or fancy car.  None of that is important.  But to live off of welfare for the rest of her life is NOT a good plan (and that's what a UBI is, call it what you want but ultimately it's living off of the government).

I'm not a fan of UBI, but Andrew Wang's proposal is to give everyone $1,000 per month. Anyone who would drop out of high school because they're getting $1,000 per month, sorry to say it, isn't very bright. That's a poverty income. 

This is a detailed article on Finland's experiment. 

https://medium.com/basic-income/what-is-...b8e5051f60
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#25
(06-29-2019, 02:50 PM)sanantone Wrote: I'm not a fan of UBI, but Andrew Wang's proposal is to give everyone $1,000 per month. Anyone who would drop out of high school because they're getting $1,000 per month, sorry to say it, isn't very bright. That's a poverty income. 

This is a detailed article on Finland's experiment. 

https://medium.com/basic-income/what-is-...b8e5051f60

First, there was no mention of the amount when my kid heard the premise, she's plenty bright.

Second, she's 16, and hates school, and has virtually no notion of how much things cost, so she can also be forgiven for not knowing that at this point in her life; that being said, see my first point.

Third, this will be enough for some people, unfortunately.

Fourth, this isn't anywhere close to what some people get for welfare now, so I'm not certain how it would work for someone who is on that now - here in CA, rent alone is going to be more than $1000/mo unless you're in the most rural of rural areas.  So it's not going to help expensive states much at all.  Not sure how to fix that, I guess to give everyone here more?  Not really certain.
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#26
(06-29-2019, 11:21 PM)dfrecore Wrote:
(06-29-2019, 02:50 PM)sanantone Wrote: I'm not a fan of UBI, but Andrew Wang's proposal is to give everyone $1,000 per month. Anyone who would drop out of high school because they're getting $1,000 per month, sorry to say it, isn't very bright. That's a poverty income. 

This is a detailed article on Finland's experiment. 

https://medium.com/basic-income/what-is-...b8e5051f60

First, there was no mention of the amount when my kid heard the premise, she's plenty bright.

Second, she's 16, and hates school, and has virtually no notion of how much things cost, so she can also be forgiven for not knowing that at this point in her life; that being said, see my first point.

Third, this will be enough for some people, unfortunately.

Fourth, this isn't anywhere close to what some people get for welfare now, so I'm not certain how it would work for someone who is on that now - here in CA, rent alone is going to be more than $1000/mo unless you're in the most rural of rural areas.  So it's not going to help expensive states much at all.  Not sure how to fix that, I guess to give everyone here more?  Not really certain.

I believe that's part of the plan. It's cheaper than welfare. The welfare system punishes those who find low-paying jobs. If you get a full-time job that pays minimum wage, your assistance is cut drastically. Knowing that minimum wage is not enough to support a family and pay for childcare, people look for workarounds to stay on welfare and avoid work. With UBI, people will receive less than they would while being on food stamps, TANF, WIC, and Section 8, but they would receive more assistance while working. Finland's experiment failed because they didn't cut the treatment group's benefits.
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#27
(06-30-2019, 10:24 AM)sanantone Wrote:
(06-29-2019, 11:21 PM)dfrecore Wrote:
(06-29-2019, 02:50 PM)sanantone Wrote: I'm not a fan of UBI, but Andrew Wang's proposal is to give everyone $1,000 per month. Anyone who would drop out of high school because they're getting $1,000 per month, sorry to say it, isn't very bright. That's a poverty income. 

This is a detailed article on Finland's experiment. 

https://medium.com/basic-income/what-is-...b8e5051f60

First, there was no mention of the amount when my kid heard the premise, she's plenty bright.

Second, she's 16, and hates school, and has virtually no notion of how much things cost, so she can also be forgiven for not knowing that at this point in her life; that being said, see my first point.

Third, this will be enough for some people, unfortunately.

Fourth, this isn't anywhere close to what some people get for welfare now, so I'm not certain how it would work for someone who is on that now - here in CA, rent alone is going to be more than $1000/mo unless you're in the most rural of rural areas.  So it's not going to help expensive states much at all.  Not sure how to fix that, I guess to give everyone here more?  Not really certain.

I believe that's part of the plan. It's cheaper than welfare. The welfare system punishes those who find low-paying jobs. If you get a full-time job that pays minimum wage, your assistance is cut drastically. Knowing that minimum wage is not enough to support a family and pay for childcare, people look for workarounds to stay on welfare and avoid work. With UBI, people will receive less than they would while being on food stamps, TANF, WIC, and Section 8, but they would receive more assistance while working. Finland's experiment failed because they didn't cut the treatment group's benefits.

I agree with you.  The welfare system punishes those who find low-paying jobs.  It should reward having any productive legal job.

Where we might differ is the "Cheap Votes Party" Dems love permanent poor folks.  They will just enact new programs on top of the UBI.  Eventually, the US UBI system will fail as Finland's did.
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#28
(06-30-2019, 01:26 PM)Life Long Learning Wrote:
(06-30-2019, 10:24 AM)sanantone Wrote:
(06-29-2019, 11:21 PM)dfrecore Wrote:
(06-29-2019, 02:50 PM)sanantone Wrote: I'm not a fan of UBI, but Andrew Wang's proposal is to give everyone $1,000 per month. Anyone who would drop out of high school because they're getting $1,000 per month, sorry to say it, isn't very bright. That's a poverty income. 

This is a detailed article on Finland's experiment. 

https://medium.com/basic-income/what-is-...b8e5051f60

First, there was no mention of the amount when my kid heard the premise, she's plenty bright.

Second, she's 16, and hates school, and has virtually no notion of how much things cost, so she can also be forgiven for not knowing that at this point in her life; that being said, see my first point.

Third, this will be enough for some people, unfortunately.

Fourth, this isn't anywhere close to what some people get for welfare now, so I'm not certain how it would work for someone who is on that now - here in CA, rent alone is going to be more than $1000/mo unless you're in the most rural of rural areas.  So it's not going to help expensive states much at all.  Not sure how to fix that, I guess to give everyone here more?  Not really certain.

I believe that's part of the plan. It's cheaper than welfare. The welfare system punishes those who find low-paying jobs. If you get a full-time job that pays minimum wage, your assistance is cut drastically. Knowing that minimum wage is not enough to support a family and pay for childcare, people look for workarounds to stay on welfare and avoid work. With UBI, people will receive less than they would while being on food stamps, TANF, WIC, and Section 8, but they would receive more assistance while working. Finland's experiment failed because they didn't cut the treatment group's benefits.

I agree with you.  The welfare system punishes those who find low-paying jobs.  It should reward having any productive legal job.

Where we might differ is the "Cheap Votes Party" Dems love permanent poor folks.  They will just enact new programs on top of the UBI.  Eventually, the US UBI system will fail as Finland's did.

Is that why Louisiana, Alabama, Arkansas, Kentucky, South Carolina, Arizona, Georgia, and Mississippi are in the top 10 when it comes to poverty? Oops! Never mind. Those are red states.
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#29
(06-30-2019, 02:51 PM)sanantone Wrote:
(06-30-2019, 01:26 PM)Life Long Learning Wrote:
(06-30-2019, 10:24 AM)sanantone Wrote:
(06-29-2019, 11:21 PM)dfrecore Wrote:
(06-29-2019, 02:50 PM)sanantone Wrote: I'm not a fan of UBI, but Andrew Wang's proposal is to give everyone $1,000 per month. Anyone who would drop out of high school because they're getting $1,000 per month, sorry to say it, isn't very bright. That's a poverty income. 

This is a detailed article on Finland's experiment. 

https://medium.com/basic-income/what-is-...b8e5051f60

First, there was no mention of the amount when my kid heard the premise, she's plenty bright.

Second, she's 16, and hates school, and has virtually no notion of how much things cost, so she can also be forgiven for not knowing that at this point in her life; that being said, see my first point.

Third, this will be enough for some people, unfortunately.

Fourth, this isn't anywhere close to what some people get for welfare now, so I'm not certain how it would work for someone who is on that now - here in CA, rent alone is going to be more than $1000/mo unless you're in the most rural of rural areas.  So it's not going to help expensive states much at all.  Not sure how to fix that, I guess to give everyone here more?  Not really certain.

I believe that's part of the plan. It's cheaper than welfare. The welfare system punishes those who find low-paying jobs. If you get a full-time job that pays minimum wage, your assistance is cut drastically. Knowing that minimum wage is not enough to support a family and pay for childcare, people look for workarounds to stay on welfare and avoid work. With UBI, people will receive less than they would while being on food stamps, TANF, WIC, and Section 8, but they would receive more assistance while working. Finland's experiment failed because they didn't cut the treatment group's benefits.

I agree with you.  The welfare system punishes those who find low-paying jobs.  It should reward having any productive legal job.

Where we might differ is the "Cheap Votes Party" Dems love permanent poor folks.  They will just enact new programs on top of the UBI.  Eventually, the US UBI system will fail as Finland's did.

Is that why Louisiana, Alabama, Arkansas, Kentucky, South Carolina, Arizona, Georgia, and Mississippi are in the top 10 when it comes to poverty? Oops! Never mind. Those are red states.

The "cheap labor party" Reps might love this idea.  To include the IT companies as they treat their non-IT workers poorly like the bus drivers.
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#30
(06-30-2019, 02:51 PM)sanantone Wrote: Is that why Louisiana, Alabama, Arkansas, Kentucky, South Carolina, Arizona, Georgia, and Mississippi are in the top 10 when it comes to poverty? Oops! Never mind. Those are red states.

Mississippi is an agrarian state with high poverty thanks to a.) being a small agrarian state, b.) largely rural populations, and c.) lack of industry relative to other states.

The fact that it has high poverty has nothing to do with its politics, I assure you. I was born in Mississippi and have lived in Mississippi most of my life. People take advantage of welfare programs in Mississippi just as they do in California, where I've also lived. It's not a red/blue problem. It's a problem with human nature, and the reality is that one of the two major political parties in the United States incentivizes "lean-on-us" -type policies more than the other.
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