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The Great Debate - Free College For All
#31
(06-30-2019, 04:40 PM)MSK9 Wrote:
(06-30-2019, 02:51 PM)sanantone Wrote: Is that why Louisiana, Alabama, Arkansas, Kentucky, South Carolina, Arizona, Georgia, and Mississippi are in the top 10 when it comes to poverty? Oops! Never mind. Those are red states.

Mississippi is an agrarian state with high poverty thanks to a.) being a small agrarian state, b.) largely rural populations, and c.) lack of industry relative to other states.

The fact that it has high poverty has nothing to do with its politics, I assure you. I was born in Mississippi and have lived in Mississippi most of my life. People take advantage of welfare programs in Mississippi just as they do in California, where I've also lived. It's not a red/blue problem. It's a problem with human nature, and the reality is that one of the two major political parties in the United States incentivizes "lean-on-us" -type policies more than the other.

And, those incentives resulted in red states being poorer? You just said that it's not a red or blue problem, but you blamed one party for incentivizing welfare. For something to be an incentive, it has to actually incentivize people. So, where are all the Democratic state politicians incentivizing so many people in the South to be on welfare? Are they governors in most of these states? Do they control the house and senate in these states? Are most of their U.S. senators and representatives Democrats? How about the Republicans who run their governments haven't done enough to incentivize education and not having a bunch of babies you can't afford at such a young age? Most people in Mississippi are not farmers, and birth control works if you take it.

To you, it is a red/blue problem because you did not respond to LifeLongLearning; you responded to me. The bias is clear as day. When I shared states offering free medical school, the only response you could come up with was something negative because those states happen to be blue states, so I already know how biased you are.

This is what I've found when searching for the most rural states. It looks like being rural and/or having a small population doesn't exactly correlate with being one of the poorest states.

Quote:The 10 states with the largest proportion of their land area classified as rural are: 1. Alaska, 2. Wyoming, 3. Montana, 4. North Dakota, 5. South Dakota, 6. Idaho, 7. New Mexico, 7. Nebraska, 9. Nevada, and 10. Utah. (Just for an example, 99.05% of Alaska’s land area is classified as rural by the Census Bureau.)

Quote:The states with the largest amount of land area classified as rural are: 1. Alaska, 2. Texas, 3. California, 4. Montana, 5. New Mexico, 6. Arizona, 7. Nevada, 8. Colorado, 9. Wyoming, and 10. Oregon.

I don't see West Virginia, Kentucky, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, or Arkansas on either of these lists.
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#32
Well, it looks like Mississippi doesn't fall into the top 10 for agrarian states either. There are states in the top 10 with similar and smaller populations that have more farmland and produce more agricultural goods, and they're not as poor as Mississippi.
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#33
(07-01-2019, 07:05 PM)sanantone Wrote: And, those incentives resulted in red states being poorer? You just said that it's not a red or blue problem, but you blamed one party for incentivizing welfare. For something to be an incentive, it has to actually incentivize people. So, where are all the Democratic state politicians incentivizing so many people in the South to be on welfare? Are they governors in most of these states? Do they control the house and senate in these states? Are most of their U.S. senators and representatives Democrats? How about the Republicans who run their governments haven't done enough to incentivize education and not having a bunch of babies you can't afford at such a young age? Most people in Mississippi are not farmers, and birth control works if you take it. 

To you, it is a red/blue problem because you did not respond to LifeLongLearning; you responded to me. The bias is clear as day. When I shared states offering free medical school, the only response you could come up with was something negative because those states happen to be blue states, so I already know how biased you are.

This is what I've found when searching for the most rural states. It looks like being rural and/or having a small population doesn't exactly correlate with being one of the poorest states.

Quote:The 10 states with the largest proportion of their land area classified as rural are: 1. Alaska, 2. Wyoming, 3. Montana, 4. North Dakota, 5. South Dakota, 6. Idaho, 7. New Mexico, 7. Nebraska, 9. Nevada, and 10. Utah. (Just for an example, 99.05% of Alaska’s land area is classified as rural by the Census Bureau.)

Quote:The states with the largest amount of land area classified as rural are: 1. Alaska, 2. Texas, 3. California, 4. Montana, 5. New Mexico, 6. Arizona, 7. Nevada, 8. Colorado, 9. Wyoming, and 10. Oregon.

I don't see West Virginia, Kentucky, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, or Arkansas on either of these lists.

(07-01-2019, 08:08 PM)sanantone Wrote: Well, it looks like Mississippi doesn't fall into the top 10 for agrarian states either. There are states in the top 10 with similar and smaller populations that have more farmland and produce more agricultural goods, and they're not as poor as Mississippi.

Since you obviously want to spar, I'll rise to the occasion. 

First, I didn't read what LifeLongLearning said, I read what you said, so you can put your "bias" card back in the deck. You're right, I did say "it's not a red or blue problem." I stand by that statement, all day. It's also true that one party does incentivize social welfare more than the other; another statement I stand by. Just because you see contradiction doesn't mean that it exists. For the record, I'm a registered independent, calling it as I've seen it without political motivation. I don't toe a party line.

I didn't read the rest of your diatribe about Democrats and Republicans. 

Next, I'm not really sure what the top ten state rurality proportions have to do with anything I said unless you're trying to somehow mitigate my point. I didn't say anything about Mississippi being one of the most agrarian states either, so you might change your conversational modality. 

Fact #1: Mississippi's main exports are cotton, soybeans and other agricultural products, hence it's an agrarian state.

Fact #2: Mississippi is currently and historically rural. So much so that nearly all of it qualifies for USDA Rural Development home loans. The State is federally designated as "underserved" in many areas, not the least of which, is medicine. Check out stats on the USDA and HRSA websites yourself to resolve any doubts you have.

I've noticed with people who are actually prone to bias, that they often attack others out of insecurity then interpret negative feedback from those attacked to affirm their views. It's cyclical.

Since you're rehashing old threads, I'm more than happy to share my reasons for not wanting to go to medical school in New York.

If you'll recall my original post in the thread you reference, I said (verbatim):

Quote:That's great for people who want to stay in New York, working primary care. As for me, I'll gladly take the debt load and live elsewhere. [Image: biggrin.png]

I'm a.) not interested in primary care, b.) not interested in paying high taxes (neither blue nor red states). 

Anything else you'd like me to clarify?
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#34
(07-02-2019, 05:19 PM)MSK9 Wrote: I've noticed with people who are actually prone to bias...

So, all people?
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#35
(07-02-2019, 05:19 PM)MSK9 Wrote:
(07-01-2019, 07:05 PM)sanantone Wrote: And, those incentives resulted in red states being poorer? You just said that it's not a red or blue problem, but you blamed one party for incentivizing welfare. For something to be an incentive, it has to actually incentivize people. So, where are all the Democratic state politicians incentivizing so many people in the South to be on welfare? Are they governors in most of these states? Do they control the house and senate in these states? Are most of their U.S. senators and representatives Democrats? How about the Republicans who run their governments haven't done enough to incentivize education and not having a bunch of babies you can't afford at such a young age? Most people in Mississippi are not farmers, and birth control works if you take it. 

To you, it is a red/blue problem because you did not respond to LifeLongLearning; you responded to me. The bias is clear as day. When I shared states offering free medical school, the only response you could come up with was something negative because those states happen to be blue states, so I already know how biased you are.

This is what I've found when searching for the most rural states. It looks like being rural and/or having a small population doesn't exactly correlate with being one of the poorest states.

Quote:The 10 states with the largest proportion of their land area classified as rural are: 1. Alaska, 2. Wyoming, 3. Montana, 4. North Dakota, 5. South Dakota, 6. Idaho, 7. New Mexico, 7. Nebraska, 9. Nevada, and 10. Utah. (Just for an example, 99.05% of Alaska’s land area is classified as rural by the Census Bureau.)

Quote:The states with the largest amount of land area classified as rural are: 1. Alaska, 2. Texas, 3. California, 4. Montana, 5. New Mexico, 6. Arizona, 7. Nevada, 8. Colorado, 9. Wyoming, and 10. Oregon.

I don't see West Virginia, Kentucky, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, or Arkansas on either of these lists.

(07-01-2019, 08:08 PM)sanantone Wrote: Well, it looks like Mississippi doesn't fall into the top 10 for agrarian states either. There are states in the top 10 with similar and smaller populations that have more farmland and produce more agricultural goods, and they're not as poor as Mississippi.

Since you obviously want to spar, I'll rise to the occasion. 

First, I didn't read what LifeLongLearning said, I read what you said, so you can put your "bias" card back in the deck. You're right, I did say "it's not a red or blue problem." I stand by that statement, all day. It's also true that one party does incentivize social welfare more than the other; another statement I stand by. Just because you see contradiction doesn't mean that it exists. For the record, I'm a registered independent, calling it as I've seen it without political motivation. I don't toe a party line.

I didn't read the rest of your diatribe about Democrats and Republicans. 

Next, I'm not really sure what the top ten state rurality proportions have to do with anything I said unless you're trying to somehow mitigate my point. I didn't say anything about Mississippi being one of the most agrarian states either, so you might change your conversational modality. 

Fact #1: Mississippi's main exports are cotton, soybeans and other agricultural products, hence it's an agrarian state.

Fact #2: Mississippi is currently and historically rural. So much so that nearly all of it qualifies for USDA Rural Development home loans. The State is federally designated as "underserved" in many areas, not the least of which, is medicine. Check out stats on the USDA and HRSA websites yourself to resolve any doubts you have.

I've noticed with people who are actually prone to bias, that they often attack others out of insecurity then interpret negative feedback from those attacked to affirm their views. It's cyclical.

Since you're rehashing old threads, I'm more than happy to share my reasons for not wanting to go to medical school in New York.

If you'll recall my original post in the thread you reference, I said (verbatim):

Quote:That's great for people who want to stay in New York, working primary care. As for me, I'll gladly take the debt load and live elsewhere. [Image: biggrin.png]

I'm a.) not interested in primary care, b.) not interested in paying high taxes (neither blue nor red states). 

Anything else you'd like me to clarify?
You responded to me, so I believe you're the one who wants to spar.

Mississippi has a lot of rural areas. And? You entirely missed the point of my post. It wasn't about whether Mississippi is rural or agrarian. It was about how being rural and agrarian is not an excuse for the poverty in the Deep South because states in other regions of the country that are more rural and more agrarian aren't nearly as poor. There are other reasons for why there are so many failures in the Deep South, but the social science lesson will throw the thread off topic more than it already is. If anyone cares to know, however, I will gladly type up a lengthy post.

You also missed the point of my original post. I don't know how you could read my post and not see the post I quoted. If Democrats wanted to keep people poor, then they are doing a bad job at it because Republicans in the Deep South have them beat. It's not that being a red state correlates with poverty; it's that being in a Democratic-controlled state does not correlate with poverty. LifeLongLearning made an idiotic, highly-political, off-topic statement. Like usual, the conservatives around here are being hypocrites by not addressing the person who started the exchange.
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#36
Mysonx3 Wrote:So, all people?

Sure, everyone has biases and there are all kinds of them. An inevitability, I guess, given humanity's need to create labels for everything we perceive. However, my response specifically addresses what was asserted by Sanantone, not psychological/sociological macrostructure.
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#37
(07-02-2019, 05:40 PM)MSK9 Wrote: Sure, everyone has biases and there are all kinds of them. An inevitability, I guess, given humanity's need to create labels for everything we perceive. However, my response specifically addresses what was asserted by Sanantone, not psychological/sociological macrostructure.

It's hard to believe that you thought you could follow the conversation without reading what LifeLongLearning wrote. If it's true that you didn't read his post, which was quoted in my post, then why did you believe that you could construct an appropriate response?
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#38
(07-02-2019, 05:39 PM)sanantone Wrote: You responded to me, so I believe you're the one who wants to spar. Mississippi has a lot of rural areas. And? You entirely missed the point of my post. It wasn't about whether Mississippi is rural or agrarian. It was about how being rural and agrarian is not an excuse for the poverty in the Deep South because states in other regions of the country that are more rural and more agrarian aren't nearly as poor. There are other reasons for why there are so many failures in the Deep South, but the social science lesson will throw the thread off topic more than it already is.

If anyone cares to know, however, I will gladly type up a lengthy post. You also missed the point of my original post. I don't know how you could read my post and not see the post I quoted. If Democrats wanted to keep people poor, then they are doing a bad job at it because Republicans in the Deep South have them beat. It's not that being a red state correlates with poverty; it's that being in a Democratic-controlled state does not correlate with poverty. LifeLongLearning made an idiotic, highly-political, off-topic statement. Like usual, the conservatives around here are being hypocrites by not addressing the person who started the exchange.

You cast aspersions on red-state governments in deep south states to.. make the point that Democratic governmental control doesn't necessarily have a poverty correlation? 

You then went on to attack me for being biased because I didn't agree with your aspersion. An ineffective, but interesting way to communicate. I'll give you that.

I'd be glad to have intelligent discourse on "social science" with you or anyone else who'd like to elucidate me on Mississippi's developmental concerns.

(07-02-2019, 05:49 PM)sanantone Wrote: It's hard to believe that you thought you could follow the conversation without reading what LifeLongLearning wrote. If it's true that you didn't read his post, which was quoted in my post, then why did you believe that you could construct an appropriate response?

I was clarifying what appeared to be a misconception on your part regarding the state in which I live and work as a public servant. Whether or not you believe I did or did not read someone else's post is irrelevant to me. I then responded further subsequent to your inaccurate assertion of bias on my part.
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#39
(07-02-2019, 05:40 PM)MSK9 Wrote: Sure, everyone has biases and there are all kinds of them. An inevitability, I guess, given humanity's need to create labels for everything we perceive. However, my response specifically addresses what was asserted by Sanantone, not psychological/sociological macrostructure.

Uh, no. When you categorize people by whether they are prone to biases, you are 1. Arguing ad hominem, and 2. Making a false dichotomy - all people are incredibly prone to biases.
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#40
(07-02-2019, 05:57 PM)MSK9 Wrote:
(07-02-2019, 05:39 PM)sanantone Wrote: You responded to me, so I believe you're the one who wants to spar. Mississippi has a lot of rural areas. And? You entirely missed the point of my post. It wasn't about whether Mississippi is rural or agrarian. It was about how being rural and agrarian is not an excuse for the poverty in the Deep South because states in other regions of the country that are more rural and more agrarian aren't nearly as poor. There are other reasons for why there are so many failures in the Deep South, but the social science lesson will throw the thread off topic more than it already is.

If anyone cares to know, however, I will gladly type up a lengthy post. You also missed the point of my original post. I don't know how you could read my post and not see the post I quoted. If Democrats wanted to keep people poor, then they are doing a bad job at it because Republicans in the Deep South have them beat. It's not that being a red state correlates with poverty; it's that being in a Democratic-controlled state does not correlate with poverty. LifeLongLearning made an idiotic, highly-political, off-topic statement. Like usual, the conservatives around here are being hypocrites by not addressing the person who started the exchange.

You cast aspersions on red-state governments in deep south states to.. make the point that Democratic governmental control doesn't necessarily have a poverty correlation? 

You then went on to attack me for being biased because I didn't agree with your aspersion. An ineffective, but interesting way to communicate. I'll give you that.

I'd be glad to have intelligent discourse on "social science" with you or anyone else who'd like to elucidate me on Mississippi's developmental concerns.
Ineffective is your opinion. I talked to LifeLongLearning at his level. In my opinion, not reading the post someone quoted and responded to is an inefficient way of communicating. It's not interesting either; I can't really think of anything positive to say about it. Ironically, your post doesn't make much sense in response to mine without the context of LifeLongLearning's post, so I'm still skeptical about your claim. You pretty much repeated what LifeLongLearning learning said. I said nothing about the Democratic Party, or any party, benefiting from keeping people poor.

(07-02-2019, 06:06 PM)mysonx3 Wrote:
(07-02-2019, 05:40 PM)MSK9 Wrote: Sure, everyone has biases and there are all kinds of them. An inevitability, I guess, given humanity's need to create labels for everything we perceive. However, my response specifically addresses what was asserted by Sanantone, not psychological/sociological macrostructure.

Uh, no. When you categorize people by whether they are prone to biases, you are 1. Arguing ad hominem, and 2. Making a false dichotomy - all people are incredibly prone to biases.

He's trying to apply the self-fulfilling prophecy concept to this situation. Since I haven't seen MSK9 participate in political threads or remember many posts from him in political threads, my post was based on him conveniently being temporarily blind when glancing over LifeLongLearning's post AND the quote of what LifeLongLearning said in my post. Could that be the result of implicit bias? I don't know. I'll take MSK9's approach and say that I've found that people who are actually biased tend to miss obvious things.
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