What would be your ideal route to med school?

[sanantone]

If I could get away with going to a community college, I would. But some programs prefer that prerequisites be taken at 4-year colleges. Because I wouldn't want to move to a place as cold as Massachusetts, I think I'd stay with a local, in-state university. I also absolutely hate moving and need a place with a backyard for my dog. I know you wanted to exclude money, but I imagine that it would be ridiculously expensive to live up there. According to Bankrate, I would need to make nearly $20,000 more to have an equivalent lifestyle up there. Then, there are the restrictive gun laws and personal income tax. *shudders*

[rebel100]

Then, there are the restrictive gun laws and personal income tax. *shudders*

For a second it seemed I was reading my own post!

[ironheadjack]

There are many 4year schools in NJ that have post-bacc programs setup, all of the required courses, letters of recommendation, MCAT prep, shadowing-research assistance, etc.

I should be able to use my GI Bill to pay for schooling and receive a living stipend on top of it, so price isn't a concern. NJ is just as expensive and cold as MA, and they both equally hate the 2nd Amendment.


HES is a top-tier program, [successful] graduates go on to top-tier medical schools, but the program attracts top-tier(ivy) students. IDK, if I'd be better suited going to a state school program, where the competition won't be as fierce.

[sanantone]

I should be able to use my GI Bill to pay for schooling and receive a living stipend on top of it, so price isn't a concern. NJ is just as expensive and cold as MA, and they both equally hate the 2nd Amendment.

Then you're all set.

[Jonathan Whatley]

HES is a top-tier program, [successful] graduates go on to top-tier medical schools, but the program attracts top-tier(ivy) students. IDK, if I'd be better suited going to a state school program, where the competition won't be as fierce.

"Fiercely competitive" is possibly the last term I would use to describe the program here. I'm trying to picture HES with "fierce competitiveness" and it's unrecognizable. That's not how we work.

It is an outstanding program – I'm using "program" generically here, including both the Health Careers Program and the courses themselves which don't depend on HCP admission. My fellow students are awesome; I'm consistently impressed, regularly in awe.

And to some extent – to a pretty big extent – pursuing med school admission is going to be fiercely competitive anywhere. To some extent, you can't escape that.

However, there are features built into the program here that strongly counter "fierce competitiveness."

Looking at the big four core prerequisites: Yearlong at HES, only Biology is graded on a curve. There is no artificial limit on the number of A's, B+'s, etc., in Gen Chem, Orgo, or Physics. Everyone knows this, and I feel zero intra-class, "gunner" competitiveness in the air. I haven't taken Bio yet, but my sense is among students, the ethos from the rest of the program largely carries over. Also, it's not uncommon for HES students to take Bio elsewhere. There are many alternatives locally, there are provisions built into the HCP that you can keep HCP sponsorship while taking some minority of your science coursework elsewhere. And you can become a very strong applicant without HCP sponsorship.

On curving, I think that the summer courses are broadly similar to yearlong courses, and that non-core, related courses (stats, A&P, etc.) are generally not curved.

Can you say that there's no artificial limit on the number of A's, B+'s, etc. in three of the four core premedical sequences at a given local school? Very possibly not. That gen chem, orgo, and/or physics are often 'premed weed-out' courses is a widely-discussed phenomenon. Here are over 200 hits for +premed +weed-out, at the Chronicle of Higher Education's site alone.

While they're challenging courses at HES, the program doesn't add this additional artificial competition. How about the case that Bio is a weed-out course? Significantly, Gen Chem is a strongly recommended prerequisite for Bio here, so in a standard schedule, Bio is taken in a second year (or after summer Gen Chem), or later. You could think of HES Bio as more of a quasi-upper-level course (though it still only has a freshman course number). Anyway, one way or another, you do want to be well prepared in Bio before going on to the MCAT, and medical or health-related school!

The nature of HES and Harvard Summer School as a whole also counter a destructively competitive ethos in several ways. Although there isn't open admission to the HCP (or degree programs through HES), there's generally open enrollment in each individual course. This helps bring a diversity to the community that's pretty wonderful.

You're correct that "the program attracts top-tier(ivy) students." One of my best study partners in my first term was an Ivy-graduate cognitive scientist who was already interviewing at great medical schools. I gained a great deal from working with her.

Another is a homeschool mom with almost no prior background in science coursework. After some rough going early on in the term, her first, she rolled up her sleeves and changed how she worked, fully earning an amazing, inspiring comeback. I know I've gained a great deal from working with her.

And sometimes we'll study with a working paramedic, and a researcher at a major hospital… And a travel marketing manager, and a religion major. And we're all in it together. A large subset of Harvard Summer School students are high-school-age. At least a handful of HES students are. From the FAQ on the HES Physics site: "Although E-1a (fall) and E-1b (spring) is geared towards pre-med students, we regularly have a small number of non-premeds who take the course, including a couple of high school students. For example, last year we had three high school students and one of them (from Boston Latin) turned out to be one of the best students in the class! So it is possible for high school students to be competitive with the rest of the class."

I'd add that I think we have more than a few people here who are explicitly going for something other than med school admission. This gives them some distance from any pre-med bubble, and adds to the diversity further. Off the top of my head I can think of pre-nursing, pre-physical therapy, pre-biotechnology, and pre-neuroscience classmates.

[publius2k4]

As far as post-bacc pre-med, you can use this page from AAMC to find such programs in various states.

https://services.aamc.org/postbac/

[cookderosa]

"Fiercely competitive" is possibly the last term I would use to describe the program here. I'm trying to picture HES with "fierce competitiveness" and it's unrecognizable. That's not how we work.

It is an outstanding program – I'm using "program" generically here, including both the Health Careers Program and the courses themselves which don't depend on HCP admission. My fellow students are awesome; I'm consistently impressed, regularly in awe.

Even though my only experience with HES is in an online graduate study program, I absolutely 100% agree. It's remarkable, they attract learners.

And to some extent – to a pretty big extent – pursuing med school admission is going to be fiercely competitive anywhere. To some extent, you can't escape that.

However, there are features built into the program here that strongly counter "fierce competitiveness."

Looking at the big four core prerequisites: Yearlong at HES, only Biology is graded on a curve. There is no artificial limit on the number of A's, B+'s, etc., in Gen Chem, Orgo, or Physics. Everyone knows this, and I feel zero intra-class, "gunner" competitiveness in the air. I haven't taken Bio yet, but my sense is among students, the ethos from the rest of the program largely carries over. Also, it's not uncommon for HES students to take Bio elsewhere. There are many alternatives locally, there are provisions built into the HCP that you can keep HCP sponsorship while taking some minority of your science coursework elsewhere. And you can become a very strong applicant without HCP sponsorship.

Know that taking bio elsewhere means you do NOT qualify for the certificate of completion and potential letter of endorsement. Of course, ANYONE can take the premed sequence, but getting the certificate may be a goal, and if so, then you'll need to do all 8 in-house.

On curving, I think that the summer courses are broadly similar to yearlong courses, and that non-core, related courses (stats, A&P, etc.) are generally not curved.

Can you say that there's no artificial limit on the number of A's, B+'s, etc. in three of the four core premedical sequences at a given local school? Very possibly not. That gen chem, orgo, and/or physics are often 'premed weed-out' courses is a widely-discussed phenomenon. Here are over 200 hits for +premed +weed-out, at the Chronicle of Higher Education's site alone.

While they're challenging courses at HES, the program doesn't add this additional artificial competition. How about the case that Bio is a weed-out course? Significantly, Gen Chem is a strongly recommended prerequisite for Bio here, so in a standard schedule, Bio is taken in a second year (or after summer Gen Chem), or later. You could think of HES Bio as more of a quasi-upper-level course (though it still only has a freshman course number). Anyway, one way or another, you do want to be well prepared in Bio before going on to the MCAT, and medical or health-related school!

The nature of HES and Harvard Summer School as a whole also counter a destructively competitive ethos in several ways. Although there isn't open admission to the HCP (or degree programs through HES), there's generally open enrollment in each individual course. This helps bring a diversity to the community that's pretty wonderful.

You're correct that "the program attracts top-tier(ivy) students." One of my best study partners in my first term was an Ivy-graduate cognitive scientist who was already interviewing at great medical schools. I gained a great deal from working with her.

Another is a homeschool mom with almost no prior background in science coursework. After some rough going early on in the term, her first, she rolled up her sleeves and changed how she worked, fully earning an amazing, inspiring comeback. I know I've gained a great deal from working with her.

And sometimes we'll study with a working paramedic, and a researcher at a major hospital… And a travel marketing manager, and a religion major. And we're all in it together. A large subset of Harvard Summer School students are high-school-age. At least a handful of HES students are. From the FAQ on the HES Physics site: "Although E-1a (fall) and E-1b (spring) is geared towards pre-med students, we regularly have a small number of non-premeds who take the course, including a couple of high school students. For example, last year we had three high school students and one of them (from Boston Latin) turned out to be one of the best students in the class! So it is possible for high school students to be competitive with the rest of the class."

I'd add that I think we have more than a few people here who are explicitly going for something other than med school admission. This gives them some distance from any pre-med bubble, and adds to the diversity further. Off the top of my head I can think of pre-nursing, pre-physical therapy, pre-biotechnology, and pre-neuroscience classmates.

[COLOR="#FF0000"]One final thing I'd add to Jonathan's wonderful post, is that there ARE a zillion post-bacs out there, and for a non-trad, in my opinion you should get the best education you can. You have to a) learn this stuff for real and b) compete against every traditionally aged and traditionally educated kid out there.
I believe traditionally aged and traditionally educated kids need to aim for sameness, while non-trads do better aiming for unique and interesting, which I don't think you'll get at your local U or CC. Just my opinion. [/COLOR]

[Jonathan Whatley]

Know that taking bio elsewhere means you do NOT qualify for the certificate of completion and potential letter of endorsement. Of course, ANYONE can take the premed sequence, but getting the certificate may be a goal, and if so, then you'll need to do all 8 in-house.

Small clarification: There used to be a certificate of completion for taking every core premedical sequence course at HES or HSS. Taking any of those core premed requirements elsewhere, even having taken one of them in a previous undergraduate life, would disqualify you from that certificate. They no longer offer the certificate of completion, for basically bureaucratic reasons.

But only a small percentage of HES premed students even qualified for the certificate. (Because most postbacs had taken some qualifying premedical course in their previous undergraduate life.)

The composite letter of endorsement that the HCP offers qualified candidates, "sponsorship," is a separate thing from the certificate. You have to be admitted to HCP and meet requirements for semester hours at HES/HSS, and GPA, to earn the sponsorship.

However, you don't have to do the cores in house to qualify for sponsorship. An HCP student should talk with Dr. Fixsen first, but my understanding is that sometimes he'll approve himself of taking another core elsewhere.

[COLOR="#FF0000"]One final thing I'd add to Jonathan's wonderful post, is that there ARE a zillion post-bacs out there, and for a non-trad, in my opinion you should get the best education you can. You have to a) learn this stuff for real and b) compete against every traditionally aged and traditionally educated kid out there.
I believe traditionally aged and traditionally educated kids need to aim for sameness, while non-trads do better aiming for unique and interesting[/COLOR]

Quoted for truth.

[sanantone]

Why is the automatic assumption that everyone's local U is a podunk U? Millions of people live within an hour or two of great universities and colleges. Ironheadjack is in a situation where he can easily move anywhere in the country. Most non-traditional students can't do that without putting their families and sometimes even themselves as single people through a lot of stress and financial risk. Non-traditional students with a non-traditional education are already unique and interesting. That's why they're called non-traditional.

[Jonathan Whatley]

Why is the automatic assumption that everyone's local U is a podunk U? Millions of people live within an hour or two of great universities and colleges. Ironheadjack is in a situation where he can easily move anywhere in the country. Most non-traditional students can't do that without putting their families and sometimes even themselves as single people through a lot of stress and financial risk. Non-traditional students with a non-traditional education are already unique and interesting. That's why they're called non-traditional.

Also quoted for truth. I love HES, but there's great teaching and learning of the basic sciences going on at local universities everywhere. And CCs (though taking most or all of your sciences through a four-year institution is advised for premedical students).