discussion about general education as it relates to CS education...and such

[KittenMittens]

In my 16 years of IT experience, I've found that without a strong peer network a degree is mandatory. For consideration in upper level positions, it is mandatory even with a strong peer network in most companies.

When I hire for senior level development positions, I typically prefer a degree in accounting and work experience in development. I've found this combination to be the best fit for the companies I work for. My segment is manufacturing, my requirements would be completely different if I were producing commercial software. For technical positions, I don't value the a degree highly myself -- but getting it past HR and to me if it's not in there is tough.

So short answer is, yes a degree is important. No it's not enough by itself to get you a job -- it will help your resume get past HR and to my desk.

Established boot camps have strong peer networks. Yes, without a network, it becomes much harder I agree with you there. In the Bay Area culture/Silicon Valley/Seattle, WA a lack of a college degree won't be a deal-breaker by any means - in other parts of the country maybe perhaps initially, but by getting enough years of experience and a work history that can make up for it. Plus, we're in a time now where education is and is becoming far cheaper and accessible than it ever was before and many top companies like Google, Tesla, Amazon, Microsoft, etc. are incredibly receptive to skills based learning. In the link from above, it mentioned how Google doesn't care about a bachelor's degree and it won't preclude you from getting a job there. Of course, it is not fool proof and the odds of working for a company like Google are still incredibly low in general, but it will likely be fair and based on merit. My nephew (as anecdotal as it is) works for SalesForce makes well over 6 figures a year, and never completed a college degree.

I think the traditional archetype that you need a business degree + MBA to work in management is going out the door ("MBAs are a dime a dozen") and that more emphasis is being placed on technical + quantitative ability. I think a tech background + MBA is nice to have for management, but after a decade or so working for one of the major tech companies, you kinda get pushed into a product management kind of role anyways where you lead some team.

Traditional modalities of learning are going out the window, and obsolete. For example, Bill Gates famously said technology would make education as cheap as $2,000 - and he was right. Check out, for instance, OMSCS - Georgia Institute of Technology - Georgia Tech's online master's in computer science only $7,000 and is a top 10 master's CS program.

[defscarlett]

Maybe we should start a new thread with this discussion, I find it interesting and maybe we shouldn't hijack the OPs thread.

The basic Tier 1 tech support at the company I currently work at requires a bachelors degree to ask the question "Is your computer plugged in?" This has been the same in every industry that I've worked (Insurance, Higher Education, Finance, Retail) of course these aren't tech companies so experience may vary, but I also know that there are many IT professionals coming on this forum needing a college degree for advancement. I also think you under-estimate the importance of a college degree.

10% of Americans have an Associate’s Degree
30% of Americans have a Bachelor's Degree
11% of Americans have a Graduate Degree

These are not high numbers, especially graduate (cough, cough MBA)

[KittenMittens]

Maybe we should start a new thread with this discussion, I find it interesting and maybe we shouldn't hijack the OPs thread.

The basic Tier 1 tech support at the company I currently work at requires a bachelors degree to ask the question "Is your computer plugged in?" This has been the same in every industry that I've worked (Insurance, Higher Education, Finance, Retail) of course these aren't tech companies so experience may vary, but I also know that there are many IT professionals coming on this forum needing a college degree for advancement. I also think you under-estimate the importance of a college degree.

10% of Americans have an Associate’s Degree
30% of Americans have a Bachelor's Degree
11% of Americans have a Graduate Degree

These are not high numbers, especially graduate (cough, cough MBA)

I tend to over-estimate the importance of a college degree and see it is a necessary evil. Less people have advanced education because of the costs, time involved, and effort expended. Most people, at least in America, which has a culture that has an aversion towards science/math culture, uses technology that seems magical based on principles of math and science and unrightfully criticize them.

What is happening though is that since people see advanced education as a necessity (and rightfully so in most cases) for higher financial income and security, there is a greater demand for higher education, despite the fact that many/most are not really qualified to be there. This leads to a glut of underqualified students with poor reading, writing, or math/science skills, and the bubble of for profit and instant admission colleges. This leads to a decline in the quality of the perceived education driving people to go for more education which can cost more. In a sense, a Post-Doc has replaced the Ph.D., Ph.D. has replaced the Master's, the Master's the Bachelor's and the Bachelor's the high school degree depending on the quality and type of program we're talking about. Nothing too farfetched about that.

Also, some graduate programs can be generally a waste of time unless you are truly passionate about it, can afford it, and/or go to a top ranked school i.e. law school, MBA <--- anything business or politically related and not based off of technical skills but outdated modalities. Most are better off not going in these directions, saving the money, opening a business, or gaining more work experience so that an employer could possibly pay for the degree.

When I went to college in India back 40 or so years ago, we do college after 10th grade - it's the British system i.e. how they do it in Britain. A lot of things in America are wasteful particularly secondary school and higher education. To go to medical school in Europe, Britain, or Asia, the average student is about 18 - 20 years old - here in America it's more about 22 - 25 <--- not exactly a good thing given you'd want a doctor with more years of experience under there belt.

What traditional liberal arts degrees were designed for, at least in America, were for the upper classes i.e. the rich and well off. People in those socioeconomic circles didn't need to worry about getting a well paying job because they were already well-connected. College became more accessible around the 80s to 90s when federal loans became widely available (what started out as a great idea became a twisted and perverted concept turning young college students into lifelong debt slaves and driven the cost of college education altogether past the rate of inflation),

Things like humanities, arts, music, etc. are great things - but don't teach any real job skills and more people are interested in getting a well paying job than what some course or professor tells them is the "right" interpretation of an 18th century poem. And many of these things you can teach on your own thanks to a personal interest in learning for the sake of learning which have improved thanks to advanced in educational tech i.e. google, wikipedia, khanacademy, MOOCs, etc. I mean in the prime of people's youth, we should be teaching students useful skills that will help them save up for retirement, buy a home, car and be able to afford a decent living. Doesn't have to be fancy or anything. This is why the millenia old educational method through apprenticeships (still practiced in vocational schools) have been so successful. It is why programs like German's apprenticeships have employees starting in their teens and contributing to Germany's low unemployment rates:

See: 1) The Secret To Germany's Low Youth Unemployment : NPR
2) Could German-style paid apprenticeships work in Michigan? | Michigan Radio
3) http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/01/busine....html?_r=0
4) BMW apprenticeship program trains workers to rise through the ranks without 4-year degree

In traditional IT fields like tech support, IT Management, system & network administration, having a bachelor's or at least Cisco/Microsoft certifications probably need a college degree, but web development/computer programming-esque jobs typically don't at least in any tech valley. Part of this is because there is such a tremendous shortage of qualified tech workers that they can do that (and also why the US hands out H1B visa to Indian tech workers like candy)

Depends on the company and industry, but at least in SF, LA, Seattle, and certain parts of NYC, not having a college degree is definitely not an insurmountable problem.

I hope the trend continues that gen eds become optional and not necessary. People should have the right to do whatever they want to fulfill any goal of theirs within reasonable limit and not be shoved down their throat that they need to spend $100,000+ to subsidize the lifestyle of some college administrators, professors, and to pay the College Water Fountain bill :roflol: If we did that a lot of degrees can be cut down to 1 - 2 years computer science included (in fact, there are post-bacc programs in CS that can be completed in a 1 or 2 now i.e. from Oregon State University).

[defscarlett]

I tend to over-estimate the importance of a college degree and see it is a necessary evil. Less people have advanced education because of the costs, time involved, and effort expended. Most people, at least in America, which has a culture that has an aversion towards science/math culture, uses technology that seems magical based on principles of math and science and unrightfully criticize them.

What is happening though is that since people see advanced education as a necessity (and rightfully so in most cases) for higher financial income and security, there is a greater demand for higher education, despite the fact that many/most are not really qualified to be there. This leads to a glut of underqualified students with poor reading, writing, or math/science skills, and the bubble of for profit and instant admission colleges. This leads to a decline in the quality of the perceived education driving people to go for more education which can cost more. In a sense, a Post-Doc has replaced the Ph.D., Ph.D. has replaced the Master's, the Master's the Bachelor's and the Bachelor's the high school degree depending on the quality and type of program we're talking about. Nothing too farfetched about that.

How do you move from that point to talking below about general education classes being a waste of time...?

Also, some graduate programs can be generally a waste of time unless you are truly passionate about it, can afford it, and/or go to a top ranked school i.e. law school, MBA <--- anything business or politically related and not based off of technical skills but outdated modalities. Most are better off not going in these directions, saving the money, opening a business, or gaining more work experience so that an employer could possibly pay for the degree.

Most graduate level programs are not meant for students with no experience. Most are mid career adults.

When I went to college in India back 40 or so years ago, we do college after 10th grade - it's the British system i.e. how they do it in Britain. A lot of things in America are wasteful particularly secondary school and higher education. To go to medical school in Europe, Britain, or Asia, the average student is about 18 - 20 years old - here in America it's more about 22 - 25 <--- not exactly a good thing given you'd want a doctor with more years of experience under there belt.

I agree with you that I want someone with more years of experience under their belt, however I prefer my doctors with more years of maturity, instead of completing medical school at 20 years of age.

What traditional liberal arts degrees were designed for, at least in America, were for the upper classes i.e. the rich and well off. People in those socioeconomic circles didn't need to worry about getting a well paying job because they were already well-connected. College became more accessible around the 80s to 90s when federal loans became widely available (what started out as a great idea became a twisted and perverted concept turning young college students into lifelong debt slaves and driven the cost of college education altogether past the rate of inflation),

Things like humanities, arts, music, etc. are great things - but don't teach any real job skills and more people are interested in getting a well paying job than what some course or professor tells them is the "right" interpretation of an 18th century poem. And many of these things you can teach on your own thanks to a personal interest in learning for the sake of learning which have improved thanks to advanced in educational tech i.e. google, wikipedia, khanacademy, MOOCs, etc. I mean in the prime of people's youth, we should be teaching students useful skills that will help them save up for retirement, buy a home, car and be able to afford a decent living. Doesn't have to be fancy or anything. This is why the millenia old educational method through apprenticeships (still practiced in vocational schools) have been so successful. It is why programs like German's apprenticeships have employees starting in their teens and contributing to Germany's low unemployment rates:

Again, you made the comment above about people not having basic educational skills, yet encourage kicking GE out of the higher educational system? Please see the below quote to understand why General Education is important:

This quick exercise may help to put GE in perspective: Think of all the skills you have needed for the various jobs or roles you have held in your life and eliminate all the ones tied to your major or discipline. Skills that come to mind might include technological abilities, writing, organizing, prioritizing, working alone and together, understanding complicated documents such as a human resources manual, a ballot, or a medical prescription, parenting, patience, communicating with someone from another place, planning a sprinkler system, navigating workplace cultures, and so on. Now think about where you learned these skills. In many cases, the answer may well be that you learned them in a general education class. For another exercise, think of three skills you obtained in your GE classes that you routinely use today. I remember a food-science preparation course, one about folklore of the Great Plains, and a biology class that continue to influence decisions that I make about my life. Of all the GE courses I took, I use Spanish the most, though I enjoyed music appreciation the most.

Other exercises might also help to remind us of why our own experiences as students in general education courses were valuable. Because I teach mathematics, I will use it in the following example. Write a list of some key words from mathematics that students and colleagues use every day and without which understanding other disciplines becomes more challenging. The following words all originate from the study of math: symmetry, graph, radius, dependent, function, system, factor, variable, parallel, rate, equivalent, elliptical, spherical, volume, dimension, independent, linear, and proportional. Many faculty members from other disciplines use these words in their every-day lectures, and they often do so without thinking because they expect students to know and use a college-level vocabulary, and often they expect students to understand the mathematical definition and application of these words. Teachers of art, political science, geography, and many other subjects use "radius" within the context of their disciplines. The mathematics courses that students take provide a foundation for them to understand the content of other courses. While many of these words may have different meanings across disciplines, the result of using the words in multiple classes is that student learning is reinforced and students begin to build understanding for what they have learned in one class and how to apply it in another.

The Value of GE or the Answer to "Why Do I Need to Take This Class?" | ASCCC

People should have the right to do whatever they want to fulfill any goal of theirs within reasonable limit and not be shoved down their throat that they need to spend $100,000+ to subsidize the lifestyle of some college administrators, professors, and to pay the College Water Fountain bill :roflol: If we did that a lot of degrees can be cut down to 1 - 2 years computer science included (in fact, there are post-bacc programs in CS that can be completed in a 1 or 2 now i.e. from Oregon State University).

They do, it's called an associates degree.

[KittenMittens]

How do you move from that point to talking below about general education classes being a waste of time...?
Most graduate level programs are not meant for students with no experience. Most are mid career adults.

I think that by the age 18 or 20 or so that if a student hasn’t developed proper reading or math/science skills they’re going to have major setbacks in college. Those people are the ones that I am talking about need some type of remedial training or education. Ideally, you can’t just have gaps in your learning, and then go onto higher level education, but that’s exactly what for profits and lower standard admissions colleges do (yes, TESC, COSC, Excelsior to some varying degree allow this depending on the major).

It’s not that I think general education is a “waste of time” it’s the disdain I have that you need to absolutely do it through a college and that it’s required. I think you can gain a general education just from having an interest in learning for the sake of learning i.e. reading on your own, exploring your hobbies, using KhanAcademy, MOOCs, Wikipedia, etc. etc.

Why isn’t math and science required at higher levels? Students are only required to do 3 - 6 credits at some programs, yet take 45 credits in liberal arts? How does that match up with the reality that most people are going to college to get a better job?

If you’re saying that GE is important for improving reading comprehension and necessary for those who need remedial training or education, then I’m not sure GE has done a good job of doing that. I loathe the idea that to “inculcate” “critical thinking” you need to go to college. Some of the richest people became that way in spite of college not because of it (i.e. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, etc. etc.)

I agree with you that I want someone with more years of experience under their belt, however I prefer my doctors with more years of maturity, instead of completing medical school at 20 years of age.

I too would want a doctor that is more mature, but doesn’t it mean something that the rest of the world follows this system including developed countries like Britain, Germany, or France? Doctors don’t make as much money, but they seem to be happier with more comfortable work hours, and more comfortable residencies that don’t lead to burn out.

The only downside I have with medical students starting later is that your ability to learn seems to decline as you get older (maybe it doesn’t matter within a few years), but someone starting at say 40 who is really mature versus one that is 20 is a big difference is going to have less years of clinical experience and training.

Again, you made the comment above about people not having basic educational skills, yet encourage kicking GE out of the higher educational system? Please see the below quote to understand why General Education is important:

What about the ones who don’t have any academic deficiencies through scholastic achievement like grades and standardized scores? Why should GE be forced on them? Why aren’t useful skills? Why saddle students who could be learning valuable skills getting generalized education instead that saddles them with tens of thousands of dollars in debt, and nothing to show for it. That GE alone will just get them a job at Starbuck’s most likely.

More importantly, the ones who don’t have basic educational skills - should they really be in college in the first place? I know it sounds odd, but college was never meant to be a place of remedial training, it was a place meant for higher learning which is why graduate school has become more emphasized now by employers. Of course, people who have academic deficiencies should not be precluded from getting a college degree, but we shouldn’t lower the standards either.

There's a major gap between what employers want, what colleges can offers, and students are finally waking up to that fact that their liberal arts degree are not highly valued with far less return that they hoped. We ignore the importance and significance of making a good income, and we fail to give the young a proper financial education (the educated do), nor does our government care or have any interest in teaching students proper personal financial management or skills.

We've also done a disservice to students by implicitly telling them that they're not as good as others if they don't go to college. It couldn't be any more wrong. Yes, I believe college is a scam, it is a ripoff, and will get you nowhere unless you are properly connected, go to a highly ranked college, or went into a degree that is actually employable (i.e. accounting, nursing, any engineering, etc.).

Mike Rowe from Dirty Jobs who never went to college makes a powerful argument for not going to college.

[video=youtube;qzKzu86Agg0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzKzu86Agg0[/video]

[ajs1976]

The basic Tier 1 tech support at the company I currently work at requires a bachelors degree to ask the question "Is your computer plugged in?" This has been the same in every industry that I've worked (Insurance, Higher Education, Finance, Retail) of course these aren't tech companies so experience may vary, but I also know that there are many IT professionals coming on this forum needing a college degree for advancement. I also think you under-estimate the importance of a college degree.

My combination of a experience, certifications, and an associates degree have worked for me, but I have encountered companies that will not consider me because I do not have a bachelors. As I shift from infrastructure and server admin type work to information security and management, the degree is becoming a bigger and more important check box.