Perpetual Students

[dfrecore]

I have a friend who is married and has three kids. They live with her parents. Her husband is in college right now at a nationally accredited diploma mill. He will owe over $200k when he graduates if he only took loans out for tuition and not for living expenses.

We live in Central Florida. There is no way they will ever be able to afford to move out. He won't even be able to find a job in the field he is training in. He'll be lucky to get his old trucking job back, just now he'll have a $2600 monthly payment to make.

I get so frustrated with stupidity.

This is not a diploma mill problem; it is a judgement problem.  Anyone that moved in with their parents and goes $200k into debt for a school when they're married with 3 kids is just silly.  Even if it was med school, it still wouldn't be a great option; just about anything else is nuts.

Lucky for my kids, this isn't an option.  Because if they said "I want to move in with you so that I can go deeply into debt to finance a college degree," my answer would be NO!  There, that just went out the window.  Onto a new plan, because that one isn't going to work.

Also, if my husband thought this was a good plan for our life, he would be wrong, and I would let him know that in no uncertain terms.  Again, NO!  If your friend had told her husband NO, and her parents had told them NO, maybe this wouldn't be happening right now.

[burbuja0512]

I have a different friend whose entire family was scrimping and saving to put him through grad school at Northwestern. Mid-career guy, not in a great job. The degree was going to cost in the 200k range and I still was scratching my head trying to do the math.

Even though it was a prestigious MBA from Kellogg, this guy was no spring chicken and was going to be saddled with at least 100k in debt.

This friend and her Northwestern husband were not who I had in mind when I wrote the original post, but the Full Sail guy made me think about them. I don't want to knock someone for personal goals and that sort of thing. I just wonder why a guy who's basically mailroom level at the company and almost 50 years old thinks that it's wise to get into six-figure debt over even a very good education. I guess where do you draw the line? And if you have a bachelor's but your drive hasn't been able to push you at least partly up the corporate ladder, then why would an MBA make a difference? Maybe he made some great connections...

[Marbles888]

I've been in school for many years and I don't plan on stopping. Many disciplines change over the years with more advanced research. How CPR is performed has changed after learning from our mistakes. I do work, I've never stopped working, but I had to reduce my hours from FT to PT in order to complete the master's degree program, which only took me 1 year and 1 quarter to complete. I've been in school for an over extended amount of years due to insults from people because I'm learning disabled. It has taken me longer than normal. The way that I see it is, I'd rather be a 40 year old with a degree than be a 40 year old without a degree. Yes, it may not be productive, but at least it's time well spent because I'm learning and working at the same time. It's better than working full-time and staying home after work and not learning anything at all. The money that I receive from financial aid (because my PT job doesn't cover the bill) is spent on education. There are people who work and make lots of $$ and they blow it on luxurious vacations, those people can be picked on too. The money that I receive go towards education. There may be many factors as to why someone is in school for an extended amount of years. Yes, it may be a middle-age crisis, but for others, it may be a dream that they've always wanted to accomplish but didn't have the time in their youth to achieve. Yes, I do feel young being in school with younger people and I've never looked my age, which has helped me. Bottom line, we never truly know the reason/s why someone may be continuously enrolling in school and accruing debt. It's really no one's business. It's not like you're personally handed their debt. For me, school is a place of acceptance. I'm welcomed there and I'm heard. I love reading and doing schoolwork, which other people despise. I hate my job and I look forward to a career change. I've earned multiple degrees and will continue to do so whether this bothers others or not. Education has no age limit or expiration date. Being productive is important, yes, because it makes you a productive member of society, but let's not forget that we are taught to shame others for being unemployed or for being in school too long. Unemployment is not a bad thing, there are seasonal workers who file for unemployment insurance because the nature of their job (seasonal fruit pickers) leaves them no other choice. So, should they be picked on for continuously filing for unemployment benefits? "Ohhh...you're ALWAYS on unemployment..Get a JOB!" Um, no! We can't judge others because we haven't walked in their shoes, we don't necessarily know what others are going through. If someone wants to be in school forever, well...that's their decision to make. I'd rather hear that someone is in school, where they are learning, than to work at a fast food restaurant for 15-20 years and making a career out of THAT!

[Charles Fout]

I would love to study something new every day for the rest of my life if I could.  However, something I will never understand is the perpetual student that continually needs to amass credits and debt, yet doesn't ever get a new job or progress his or her career.


My husband's ex has 3 undergraduate degrees and a master's degree and finally got a full-time job in her late 40's.  Her school time was not a huge issue until she got divorced and kept going to school even though she had no reason (or money) to do so.   In fact, even though she finally got a decent job, she is so mired in debt that she lives on dried beans and charges my step-daughter sky-high rent just to make ends meet.    (My stepdaughter is barely 18 and autistic to the point of almost being disabled.  She could live with us for free, but after living with us her whole life, she wants to spend time with her mom.)


The latest annoyance is a friend who has 180 B&M credits from very good schools and just went back to a for-profit online school, today is taking a whole slew of business 101-type classes.    I have already told her that I will volunteer to fill out all paperwork and help her with one of the Big 3 schools in order to help her see how quickly she can graduate.   I even pointed out to my friend that if she's going to spend more money on school, it should be at the graduate level, and that btw real-life experience at her age counts a LOT more than a business degree.   But she LOVES to be in school and has been posting on Facebook and getting so many congratulations and motivational messages.    "Good for you.. so smart that you're doing something positive in your life!"  Etc..


I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but these are just two examples of people close to me.  I am all about studying when you want to, and I really believe that the US has a lot of problems with higher ed.  But OMG going into debt for study that serves no real purpose is infuriating.    Am I being a grump about this or what is the purpose of being a perpetual student when  you can't afford it?    Is it just an escape from reality?

I have no need of further degrees, certificates, or credits but I'm in love with learning, and I hope to remain engaged for the rest of my life.  Perhaps those who chose to continue to amass degrees and credits to so to have structure, goals, and markers of accomplishment. Best wishes to everyone on the life-long learning path.

[Ares]

Being productive is important, yes, because it makes you a productive member of society, but let's not forget that we are taught to shame others for being unemployed or for being in school too long. Unemployment is not a bad thing, there are seasonal workers who file for unemployment insurance because the nature of their job (seasonal fruit pickers) leaves them no other choice. So, should they be picked on for continuously filing for unemployment benefits?  "Ohhh...you're ALWAYS on unemployment..Get a JOB!" Um, no! We can't judge others because we haven't walked in their shoes, we don't necessarily know what others are going through. If someone wants to be in school forever, well...that's their decision to make. I'd rather hear that someone is in school, where they are learning, than to work at a fast food restaurant for 15-20 years and making a career out of THAT!

No one is "taught" to shame others they are taught (or should be) to be productive members of society and that means making the right choices in life to support themselves without constantly relying on the rest of society to do so. Everyone is free to choose their own path but those that keep making poor choices such as taking seasonal jobs and then abusing tax payer funded unemployment just because they can will be looked down on when everyone else is doing the right thing and working full time not abusing the system.

Going to school for the sake of going to school and not completing anything is not the same as someone taking years to acquire enough credits to complete a degree. People who don't complete things ever or cannot hold down a job are seen as unproductive and unreliable. You seem to want others to accept someone's poor life choices which they are not going to.

I have much more respect for someone who has worked 15-20 years at a fast food restaurant and slowly worked their way towards an online degree piece by piece then someone who mooches off their family with no job, abuses the unemployment system or uses the excuse that they are in school for 10 years as to why they do not have to work. Yeah I do "know" what these people are going through and I have zero remorse, they cannot function in society due to personality traits and believe entry level jobs are beneath them. They are usually selfish and narcissistic individuals.

[NotJoeBiden]

Being productive is important, yes, because it makes you a productive member of society, but let's not forget that we are taught to shame others for being unemployed or for being in school too long. Unemployment is not a bad thing, there are seasonal workers who file for unemployment insurance because the nature of their job (seasonal fruit pickers) leaves them no other choice. So, should they be picked on for continuously filing for unemployment benefits?  "Ohhh...you're ALWAYS on unemployment..Get a JOB!" Um, no! We can't judge others because we haven't walked in their shoes, we don't necessarily know what others are going through. If someone wants to be in school forever, well...that's their decision to make. I'd rather hear that someone is in school, where they are learning, than to work at a fast food restaurant for 15-20 years and making a career out of THAT!

No one is "taught" to shame others they are taught (or should be) to be productive members of society and that means making the right choices in life to support themselves without constantly relying on the rest of society to do so. Everyone is free to choose their own path but those that keep making poor choices such as taking seasonal jobs and then abusing tax payer funded unemployment just because they can will be looked down on when everyone else is doing the right thing and working full time not abusing the system.

Going to school for the sake of going to school and not completing anything is not the same as someone taking years to acquire enough credits to complete a degree. People who don't complete things ever or cannot hold down a job are seen as unproductive and unreliable. You seem to want others to accept someone's poor life choices which they are not going to.

I have much more respect for someone who has worked 15-20 years at a fast food restaurant and slowly worked their way towards an online degree piece by piece then someone who mooches off their family with no job, abuses the unemployment system or uses the excuse that they are in school for 10 years as to why they do not have to work. Yeah I do "know" what these people are going through and I have zero remorse, they cannot function in society due to personality traits and believe entry level jobs are beneath them. They are usually selfish and narcissistic individuals.

What is your purpose in commenting here? Just to gatekeep people trying to learn?


-
Joe the engineer

[Ares]

Being productive is important, yes, because it makes you a productive member of society, but let's not forget that we are taught to shame others for being unemployed or for being in school too long. Unemployment is not a bad thing, there are seasonal workers who file for unemployment insurance because the nature of their job (seasonal fruit pickers) leaves them no other choice. So, should they be picked on for continuously filing for unemployment benefits?  "Ohhh...you're ALWAYS on unemployment..Get a JOB!" Um, no! We can't judge others because we haven't walked in their shoes, we don't necessarily know what others are going through. If someone wants to be in school forever, well...that's their decision to make. I'd rather hear that someone is in school, where they are learning, than to work at a fast food restaurant for 15-20 years and making a career out of THAT!

No one is "taught" to shame others they are taught (or should be) to be productive members of society and that means making the right choices in life to support themselves without constantly relying on the rest of society to do so. Everyone is free to choose their own path but those that keep making poor choices such as taking seasonal jobs and then abusing tax payer funded unemployment just because they can will be looked down on when everyone else is doing the right thing and working full time not abusing the system.

Going to school for the sake of going to school and not completing anything is not the same as someone taking years to acquire enough credits to complete a degree. People who don't complete things ever or cannot hold down a job are seen as unproductive and unreliable. You seem to want others to accept someone's poor life choices which they are not going to.

I have much more respect for someone who has worked 15-20 years at a fast food restaurant and slowly worked their way towards an online degree piece by piece then someone who mooches off their family with no job, abuses the unemployment system or uses the excuse that they are in school for 10 years as to why they do not have to work. Yeah I do "know" what these people are going through and I have zero remorse, they cannot function in society due to personality traits and believe entry level jobs are beneath them. They are usually selfish and narcissistic individuals.

What is your purpose in commenting here? Just to gatekeep people trying to learn?

Do you have a degree in strawman arguments?

[NotJoeBiden]

What does that even mean?

[Jonathan Whatley]

Let's really think about the population of people in the United States aged about 30 or above, who haven't held a job in 10 years, not conventionally retired, not incarcerated.

I see very many people doing unpaid work at home and in the community: homemakers, caregivers to children and elders, volunteers, definitional edge cases where they're working for a family business like a farm. I very many people with apparent disabilities or serious illnesses, and many others with subtle ones, such as mental health or neurodevelopmental. Some people lucky to survive overwhelming difficult situations such as homelessness or abuse, for whom it's hard to make the next step up. Some people with criminal records they've legitimately turned a corner and rehabilitated from, for whom it's hard to make the next step up.

And yes, some people who could readily get work but are lazy. But they aren't representative of the group.

[Ares]

Let's really think about the population of people in the United States aged about 30 or above, who haven't held a job in 10 years, not conventionally retired, not incarcerated.

I see very many people doing unpaid work at home and in the community: homemakers, caregivers to children and elders, volunteers, definitional edge cases where they're working for a family business like a farm. I very many people with apparent disabilities or serious illnesses, and many others with subtle ones, such as mental health or neurodevelopmental. Some people lucky to survive overwhelming difficult situations such as homelessness or abuse, for whom it's hard to make the next step up. Some people with criminal records they've legitimately turned a corner and rehabilitated from, for whom it's hard to make the next step up.

And yes, some people who could readily get work but are lazy. But they aren't representative of the group.

That is anecdotal with no source and does not address anything I was responding to.