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Dyscalculia-Math Challenged
#21
Yes, most of the papers listed do mention children and arithmetic. This is probably due to the fact that higher forms of math have a foundation in the basic mathematical functions used in arithmetic. Also, learning disabilities are usually easier to determine and clarify in children. Most adults, who may have a learning disability but were never diagnosed with it, usually will develop compensatory behaviour that may affect experiments trying to quantify a disability.

National Center for Learning Disabilities website on Dyscalculia
http://www.ncld.org/index.php?option=con...iew&id=463

From the above link...

Dyscalculia is a term referring to a wide range of life-long learning disabilities involving math. There is no single form of math disability, and difficulties vary from person to person and affect people differently in school and throughout life.
[SIZE="1"][COLOR="blue"]
BS in Accounting(General) from Excelsior College
Enrolled in MBA program at Upper Iowa University.[/COLOR][/SIZE]
#22
SimonTam Wrote:Yes, most of the papers listed do mention children and arithmetic. This is probably due to the fact that higher forms of math have a foundation in the basic mathematical functions used in arithmetic. Also, learning disabilities are usually easier to determine and clarify in children. Most adults, who may have a learning disability but were never diagnosed with it, usually will develop compensatory behaviour that may affect experiments trying to quantify a disability.

National Center for Learning Disabilities website on Dyscalculia
http://www.ncld.org/index.php?option=con...iew&id=463

From the above link...

Dyscalculia is a term referring to a wide range of life-long learning disabilities involving math. There is no single form of math disability, and difficulties vary from person to person and affect people differently in school and throughout life.


I agree. Higher math usually involves the basic arithmetic operations at the low level. But as I explained: If you have completed highschool, you should have no problem with arithmetic.
#23
spazz Wrote:I agree. Higher math usually involves the basic arithmetic operations at the low level. But as I explained: If you have completed highschool, you should have no problem with arithmetic.

And I wasn't arguing with you about arithmetic but the learning disability. However as I explained: Dyscalculia is a [SIZE="5"]LIFE-LONG[/SIZE] learning disability and the [SIZE="5"]difficulties vary from person to person[/SIZE]. Which means that some may have [SIZE="5"]NO PROBLEM LEARNING ARITHMETIC[/SIZE] but have problems learning more advanced forms of math.

You said that the ability to learn higher forms of math is laziness which is not only wrong, but stereotyping. Dyslexia, for example, was only beginning to be diagnosed in persons with prior head injuries in the late 19th century and early 20th. Congenital or developmental dyslexia was only considered with the work of Dr. Samual Orton with mentally retarded patients in the 1930s and 1940s. To this day, the medical community does not know exactly what causes dyslexia, but are fairly confident that they have determined the exact area of the brain affected by dyslexia.

The point is that some people may not be able to grasp higher forms of math such as Calculus or Computational Linear Algebra. For some people, it won't matter how hard they apply themselves, they may never understand even PreCalculus.

I am all for pushing a person to their limits to learn as much as possible. It's good for them, it's good for society. However, saying they are lazy simply because they cannot grasp advanced Math concepts is narrow-minded and prejudiced.

Of course, on the other side of the coin, someone who has difficulty with math concepts may see the dyscalculia definition and claim they have the disability. However, they may not truly have it, but simply giving themselves an out. That is laziness. But it doesn't mean that all people who have difficulty learning advanced math concepts are lazy. That is where I disagreed with you. Your generalization that all people who can't learn advanced math are just lazy.
[SIZE="1"][COLOR="blue"]
BS in Accounting(General) from Excelsior College
Enrolled in MBA program at Upper Iowa University.[/COLOR][/SIZE]
#24
SimonTam Wrote:And I wasn't arguing with you about arithmetic but the learning disability. However as I explained: Dyscalculia is a [SIZE="5"]LIFE-LONG[/SIZE] learning disability and the [SIZE="5"]difficulties vary from person to person[/SIZE]. Which means that some may have [SIZE="5"]NO PROBLEM LEARNING ARITHMETIC[/SIZE] but have problems learning more advanced forms of math.

You said that the ability to learn higher forms of math is laziness which is not only wrong, but stereotyping. Dyslexia, for example, was only beginning to be diagnosed in persons with prior head injuries in the late 19th century and early 20th. Congenital or developmental dyslexia was only considered with the work of Dr. Samual Orton with mentally retarded patients in the 1930s and 1940s. To this day, the medical community does not know exactly what causes dyslexia, but are fairly confident that they have determined the exact area of the brain affected by dyslexia.

The point is that some people may not be able to grasp higher forms of math such as Calculus or Computational Linear Algebra. For some people, it won't matter how hard they apply themselves, they may never understand even PreCalculus.

I am all for pushing a person to their limits to learn as much as possible. It's good for them, it's good for society. However, saying they are lazy simply because they cannot grasp advanced Math concepts is narrow-minded and prejudiced.

Of course, on the other side of the coin, someone who has difficulty with math concepts may see the dyscalculia definition and claim they have the disability. However, they may not truly have it, but simply giving themselves an out. That is laziness. But it doesn't mean that all people who have difficulty learning advanced math concepts are lazy. That is where I disagreed with you. Your generalization that all people who can't learn advanced math are just lazy.

Like I said before, when reading the papers that person listed, they defined the "disorder" as a childs disorder of learning arithmetic. If I had a choice, I would rather believe those research papers that have most likly been published in a nonsense journal then to believe an internet definition. But thats only if I am forced to believe the theory Smile.

Thats fine and if thats what you believe, great. This "theory" is purely subjective, with no mathematical evidence. I like to stick to objective and factual theories. It is true that humans are 99.9999999999999% identical to one another from a molecular stand point. What that means is that when you're born, you are basically born with equality. I like to think about that as you choose your own destiny from that point on.

However, I can agree with you that some people may find math hard because they have a phobia about it or that they just do not put the effort needed into learning it.

I am the kind of person that believes if someone wants something hard enough, they can and will achieve it. It is just a matter of motivation and effort you put into it.
#25
spazz Wrote:Like I said before, when reading the papers that person listed, they defined the "disorder" as a childs disorder of learning arithmetic. If I had a choice, I would rather believe those research papers that have most likly been published in a nonsense journal then to believe an internet definition. But thats only if I am forced to believe the theory Smile.

Thats fine and if thats what you believe, great. This "theory" is purely subjective, with no mathematical evidence. I like to stick to objective and factual theories. It is true that humans are 99.9999999999999% identical to one another from a molecular stand point. What that means is that when you're born, you are basically born with equality. I like to think about that as you choose your own destiny from that point on.

However, I can agree with you that some people may find math hard because they have a phobia about it or that they just do not put the effort needed into learning it. BUT I will not let you or anyone else blame a subjective theory for their inability to do math.

I am the kind of person that believes if someone wants something hard enough, they can and will achieve it. It is just a matter of motivation and effort you put into it.

Well, I had written an extremely lengthy reply that referenced articles on comparing brain activity in students using an MRI machine, but you would never believe them anyway, so I deleted it all.

But, one last point, your inference that "people who have trouble learning math are lazy" is a subjective statement based upon your personal observances of a limited number of people. So basically, you condemn what you call a subjective theory while making one yourself. Smile Like I said, you're stereotyping.

I'm not replying to anymore of your posts.

Have a good life.
[SIZE="1"][COLOR="blue"]
BS in Accounting(General) from Excelsior College
Enrolled in MBA program at Upper Iowa University.[/COLOR][/SIZE]
#26
SimonTam Wrote:Well, I had written an extremely lengthy reply that referenced articles on comparing brain activity in students using an MRI machine, but you would never believe them anyway, so I deleted it all.

But, one last point, your inference that "people who have trouble learning math are lazy" is a subjective statement based upon your personal observances of a limited number of people. So basically, you condemn what you call a subjective theory while making one yourself. Smile Like I said, you're stereotyping.

I'm not replying to anymore of your posts.

Have a good life.

I would not call that a theory, maybe if I somehow proved it statistically then we could believe it in generalities.
#27
spazz Wrote:I would not call that a theory, maybe if I somehow proved it statistically then we could believe it in generalities.

A theory, by definition, is as yet unproven. It is speculative in nature. Were you to actually PROVE it, it would cease to be a theory.

You seem highly oppositional Spazz. Were you a child or an adolescent, I might even suspect an OD Disorder. As an adult, your dismissive opposition to any and all varying viewpoints; your outright rejection of legitimate, well-reasoned, and well-documented alternative ideas; and the combative tone of your responses, come across as merely arrogant, tiresome, and counterproductive.

No reasonable person would reject the notion that "laziness" is very likely a factor in many cases of academic failure at college-level math. However, to rigidly defend your argument that laziness is the ONLY possible factor is just silly. It's not only arrogant, it is intellectually ignorant.

Someone reasonably and rationally tried to explain their differing view point, and you responded that they were making excuses. Someone tried to relate a personal narrative, and you responded by questioning the veracity of her claims. Someone presented you with numerous external links to published research, and you responded by arguing that the research was meaningless because it was "relative, subjective, and not proven mathematically". Someone posted additional peer-reviewed scientific research, and you responded by switching the issue to being about basic arithmetic skills and claiming that you would rather believe a paper published in a "nonsense journal" than an "internet definition". Someone mentioned that your original statement was a "subjective theory" and you even argued about whether it was a theory or not.

This is no longer reasoned argument...it is just argument!

At a certain point, it becomes argument for argument's sake, and the discussion is no longer meaningful. If there is no commitment to reasonable discourse and a genuine meeting of the minds, then further discussion is fruitless and will not be helpful to anyone.

In fairness, I will give you some time to respond, and then I am going to close this thread. It is no longer serving any positive purpose for this community.

Thanks,
Snazzlefrag
My name is Rob
_____________________________________
Exams/Courses Passed (43):
- Courses (4): 1 Excelsior, 1 CSU-Pueblo, 2 Penn Foster.
- Exams (39): 24 DSST, 15 CLEP.

Total Credits: 142 (12 not used).
[SIZE=1]GPA: 4.0
[/SIZE]
#28
snazzlefrag Wrote:A theory, by definition, is as yet unproven. It is speculative in nature. Were you to actually PROVE it, it would cease to be a theory.

You seem highly oppositional Spazz. Were you a child or an adolescent, I might even suspect an OD Disorder. As an adult, your dismissive opposition to any and all varying viewpoints; your outright rejection of legitimate, well-reasoned, and well-documented alternative ideas; and the combative tone of your responses, come across as merely arrogant, tiresome, and counterproductive.

No reasonable person would reject the notion that "laziness" is very likely a factor in many cases of academic failure at college-level math. However, to rigidly defend your argument that laziness is the ONLY possible factor is just silly. It's not only arrogant, it is intellectually ignorant.

Someone reasonably and rationally tried to explain their differing view point, and you responded that they were making excuses. Someone tried to relate a personal narrative, and you responded by questioning the veracity of her claims. Someone presented you with numerous external links to published research, and you responded by arguing that the research was meaningless because it was "relative, subjective, and not proven mathematically". Someone posted additional peer-reviewed scientific research, and you responded by switching the issue to being about basic arithmetic skills and claiming that you would rather believe a paper published in a "nonsense journal" than an "internet definition". Someone mentioned that your original statement was a "subjective theory" and you even argued about whether it was a theory or not.

This is no longer reasoned argument...it is just argument!

At a certain point, it becomes argument for argument's sake, and the discussion is no longer meaningful. If there is no commitment to reasonable discourse and a genuine meeting of the minds, then further discussion is fruitless and will not be helpful to anyone.

In fairness, I will give you some time to respond, and then I am going to close this thread. It is no longer serving any positive purpose for this community.

Thanks,
Snazzlefrag


You're correct, nothing can be proven. But the fact that there is sound evidence against something is about as factual as it will become. Lets just say, it becomes accepted by scientists as factual, even though eventually it might be disproven. But anyway, that is beyond the point.

Everyone has the right to their opinion, do you not agree? Everything I posted, everyone critqued, so if you say I responded with excuses etc. Then you're right, I responded with my opinion.

I do not believe I said laziness is the ONLY problem, but it is a big problem. But again laziness is a relative term. I believe lack of motivation and effort also causes people to have math problems. As you can see, one could say lack of motivation and effort are the bread and butter of laziness? It is purely relative. One might be a very hard worker, but his motivation for doing math for whatever reason is simply not there.

Although, I believe a lot of americans at least blame their problems on silly disorders. It is easier to cast excuses on your problems then to actually take them by the horns and fix whatever is causing the problems. To put in terms you might understand, I think this is a major "disorder" of american society. That is why the US is often called the prozac nation.

But anyway, I believe this was a nice orderly off-topic discussion. I see no reason to lock it, but ofcourse it remains up to you!
#29
Fair enough!

Let's move on to other discussions now. This thread is closed.
My name is Rob
_____________________________________
Exams/Courses Passed (43):
- Courses (4): 1 Excelsior, 1 CSU-Pueblo, 2 Penn Foster.
- Exams (39): 24 DSST, 15 CLEP.

Total Credits: 142 (12 not used).
[SIZE=1]GPA: 4.0
[/SIZE]


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