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Fail State - documentary about Higher Education for-profit schools
#1
Just listened to the Fail State doc..

Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S64WANCgMek

I don't think there is anything new in it, but listening to those stories is disheartening. I would hope high school and the army would start educating their people about accreditation an the difference in the type of universities. A big part is predatory marketing, uninformed people trusting the system without looking at the numbers themselves.

Interesting to see again that for-profit universities pioneered a lot of online education but also kind of gave it a bad reputation that is just starting to fade away.

Can the US have a reputable for-profit system over the long term? I kind of doubt it, regulation can be cut and we get into the spiral of profits.
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#2
I really want to watch it, but ugh it's $5 on prime... I'm cheap. I'll wait until I can find it for free, but for SURE I'm going to watch that!
Jennifer
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MS Applied Nutrition, 2014 Canisius College, NY
Premed/Prenursing Sciences, 2011 Ocean County College, NJ
BA Social Science, 2008 Thomas Edison State University, NJ
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#3
Star 
(12-11-2018, 09:50 AM)cookderosa Wrote: I really want to watch it, but ugh it's $5 on prime... I'm cheap.  I'll wait until I can find it for free, but for SURE I'm going to watch that!

Check your local library.  My state's library system has it - hopefully in a few days it will be at my local branch for me to pick up
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  • cookderosa
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#4
She paid $50k for an associate's degree?

I haven't seen the documentary yet, but I bet I will be annoyed a little. While I'm not a fan of for-profit colleges, the media doesn't understand that, many times, the problem is accreditation. There are nationally accredited, non-profit colleges, and their credits often don't transfer either. On the other hand, credits from University of Phoenix usually will transfer because the school is regionally accredited.
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  • Life Long Learning
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#5
It's only $3.99 on Google Play and Youtube...
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  • cookderosa
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#6
(12-11-2018, 02:57 PM)davewill Wrote: It's only $3.99 on Google Play and Youtube...

well, $1 down, 3.99 to go Wink

Hitting on Sanantone's point- it's sooo soooo soooo tricky. I am 100% on the ball about this stuff, but watching my 3 sons fill out FAFSA and get financial aid packages changes you from thinking that everyone is stupid and not paying attention to understanding how people get duped.

Colleges pitch a "Financial Aid Package" but sometimes students don't realize they are taking out loans. Colleges do NOT do a great job of separating, and that's not even at the for-profits (I haven't seen a Financial Aid Package from one, but would be interested to). Anyway, the roll in tuition, fees, LIVING EXPENSES, etc. and make it "look like" you need X for the school year - sign here. In order to line item out the loans, they have to rewrite the entire package using just grants, institutional scholarships, work-study, etc. I watched a financial aid officer roll her eyes at the boy and his mom in front of us because he was asking questions. (at a community college) it's hard to pinpoint because it's transparent (everything is written in clear English) but there is just something in the process that makes it too easy for kids (and adults) to over-borrow. I realize fees can be expensive (they are here in NC anyway) but it's just so slimy. I think it's the word they use: "AWARD" like it's a gift - a scholarship- a present. No, an award is none of those things, it's a LOAN. I honestly don't think it's obvious to everyone.

Edit, I found on Northeastern's website a really good breakdown of the "award" letter as well as a sample. Not sure how to screenshot- but here's the link - it's worth checking out. https://studentfinance.northeastern.edu/...our-award/
Jennifer
10-year member

MS Applied Nutrition, 2014 Canisius College, NY
Premed/Prenursing Sciences, 2011 Ocean County College, NJ
BA Social Science, 2008 Thomas Edison State University, NJ
AA General Studies, 2008 Thomas Edison State University, NJ
AOS Culinary Arts,1990 Culinary Institute of America, NY

Homeschooling for College Credit
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#7
(12-11-2018, 03:25 PM)cookderosa Wrote: Hitting on Sanantone's point- it's sooo soooo soooo tricky.  I am 100% on the ball about this stuff, but watching my 3 sons fill out FAFSA and get financial aid packages changes you from thinking that everyone is stupid and not paying attention to understanding how people get duped.

Colleges pitch a "Financial Aid Package" but sometimes students don't realize they are taking out loans.  Colleges do NOT do a great job of separating, and that's not even at the for-profits (I haven't seen a Financial Aid Package from one, but would be interested to).  Anyway, the roll in tuition, fees, LIVING EXPENSES, etc.  and make it "look like" you need X for the school year - sign here.  In order to line item out the loans, they have to rewrite the entire package using just grants, institutional scholarships, work-study, etc.  I watched a financial aid officer roll her eyes at the boy and his mom in front of us because he was asking questions.  (at a community college) it's hard to pinpoint because it's transparent (everything is written in clear English) but there is just something in the process that makes it too easy for kids (and adults) to over-borrow.  I realize fees can be expensive (they are here  in NC anyway) but it's just so slimy.  I think it's the word they use:  "AWARD" like it's a gift - a scholarship- a present. No, an award is none of those things, it's a LOAN.  I honestly don't think it's obvious to everyone.

Edit, I found on Northeastern's website a really good breakdown of the "award" letter as well as a sample. Not sure how to screenshot- but here's the link - it's worth checking out. https://studentfinance.northeastern.edu/...our-award/

I agree.  Even back in the late 80's when I went to college, it was confusing about which part is a loan.  These should be completely separate.  You should get 1 set of paperwork that shows the total cost, and subtracting loans/grants/scholarships, and then a 2nd set of paperwork that shows the loan that you're taking out, IF you choose to do so.  It should not all be together.  I think they try to trick kids (and their parents) into taking out loans.
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#8
(12-11-2018, 04:33 PM)dfrecore Wrote:
(12-11-2018, 03:25 PM)cookderosa Wrote: Hitting on Sanantone's point- it's sooo soooo soooo tricky.  I am 100% on the ball about this stuff, but watching my 3 sons fill out FAFSA and get financial aid packages changes you from thinking that everyone is stupid and not paying attention to understanding how people get duped.

Colleges pitch a "Financial Aid Package" but sometimes students don't realize they are taking out loans.  Colleges do NOT do a great job of separating, and that's not even at the for-profits (I haven't seen a Financial Aid Package from one, but would be interested to).  Anyway, the roll in tuition, fees, LIVING EXPENSES, etc.  and make it "look like" you need X for the school year - sign here.  In order to line item out the loans, they have to rewrite the entire package using just grants, institutional scholarships, work-study, etc.  I watched a financial aid officer roll her eyes at the boy and his mom in front of us because he was asking questions.  (at a community college) it's hard to pinpoint because it's transparent (everything is written in clear English) but there is just something in the process that makes it too easy for kids (and adults) to over-borrow.  I realize fees can be expensive (they are here  in NC anyway) but it's just so slimy.  I think it's the word they use:  "AWARD" like it's a gift - a scholarship- a present. No, an award is none of those things, it's a LOAN.  I honestly don't think it's obvious to everyone.

Edit, I found on Northeastern's website a really good breakdown of the "award" letter as well as a sample. Not sure how to screenshot- but here's the link - it's worth checking out. https://studentfinance.northeastern.edu/...our-award/

I agree.  Even back in the late 80's when I went to college, it was confusing about which part is a loan.  These should be completely separate.  You should get 1 set of paperwork that shows the total cost, and subtracting loans/grants/scholarships, and then a 2nd set of paperwork that shows the loan that you're taking out, IF you choose to do so.  It should not all be together.  I think they try to trick kids (and their parents) into taking out loans.


I agree- not only should the paperwork be separate but I don't like colleges calculating in costs beyond what they are going to bill you for. It's really bad form to write in that my son's cost of attendance includes $1,400 in textbooks. Uh, no, we're not paying $1,400 for textbooks. Someone might be, but we're not lol and EVEN IF we buy an overpriced NEW textbook with a code for a zillion dollars, it won't be part of a 20 year loan.
Jennifer
10-year member

MS Applied Nutrition, 2014 Canisius College, NY
Premed/Prenursing Sciences, 2011 Ocean County College, NJ
BA Social Science, 2008 Thomas Edison State University, NJ
AA General Studies, 2008 Thomas Edison State University, NJ
AOS Culinary Arts,1990 Culinary Institute of America, NY

Homeschooling for College Credit
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#9
(12-11-2018, 06:18 PM)cookderosa Wrote:
(12-11-2018, 04:33 PM)dfrecore Wrote: I agree.  Even back in the late 80's when I went to college, it was confusing about which part is a loan.  These should be completely separate.  You should get 1 set of paperwork that shows the total cost, and subtracting loans/grants/scholarships, and then a 2nd set of paperwork that shows the loan that you're taking out, IF you choose to do so.  It should not all be together.  I think they try to trick kids (and their parents) into taking out loans.


I agree- not only should the paperwork be separate but I don't like colleges calculating in costs beyond what they are going to bill you for.  It's really bad form to write in that my son's cost of attendance includes $1,400 in textbooks.  Uh, no, we're not paying $1,400 for textbooks. Someone might be, but we're not lol and EVEN IF we buy an overpriced NEW textbook with a code for a zillion dollars, it won't be part of a 20 year loan.

I agree!!  One of the kids I was helping with our local CC was so confused - they were calculating living expenses.  Um, he lives at home, his parents buy food and electricity, I think his bills are like gas for his car and his cell phone.  He doesn't need to have thousands of dollars calculated in for that stuff, and then not even realize he's taking a loan out for stuff that he doesn't need/want.  When all was said and done, between a grant, and a scholarship, his school was free, and books were about $150 to rent for the semester.  He certainly didn't need a loan for $2500!  And he has a PT job, so he was able to pay cash for everything anyway.  So infuriating.
TESU BSBA in HR, 2018
WVNCC BOG AAS,
 2017
GGU Cert in Management, 2000

EXAMS: TECEP Tech Writg, Engl Comp 2, LA Math, Public Rel, Computers  DSST Computers, Pers Fin  CLEP Mgmt, Mktg
COURSES: TESU Capstone  Study.com Pers Fin, Microecon, Stats  Ed4Credit Acct 2  PF Fin Mgmt  ALEKS Int Alg, Coll Alg  Sophia Proj Mgmt The Institutes - Ins Ethics  Kaplan PLA
B&M COURSESPalomar CollMission Coll, Golden Gate Univ, San Jose State Univ
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#10
(12-11-2018, 03:25 PM)cookderosa Wrote:
(12-11-2018, 02:57 PM)davewill Wrote: It's only $3.99 on Google Play and Youtube...

well, $1 down, 3.99 to go Wink

Hitting on Sanantone's point- it's sooo soooo soooo tricky.  I am 100% on the ball about this stuff, but watching my 3 sons fill out FAFSA and get financial aid packages changes you from thinking that everyone is stupid and not paying attention to understanding how people get duped.

Colleges pitch a "Financial Aid Package" but sometimes students don't realize they are taking out loans.  Colleges do NOT do a great job of separating, and that's not even at the for-profits (I haven't seen a Financial Aid Package from one, but would be interested to).  Anyway, the roll in tuition, fees, LIVING EXPENSES, etc.  and make it "look like" you need X for the school year - sign here.  In order to line item out the loans, they have to rewrite the entire package using just grants, institutional scholarships, work-study, etc.  I watched a financial aid officer roll her eyes at the boy and his mom in front of us because he was asking questions.  (at a community college) it's hard to pinpoint because it's transparent (everything is written in clear English) but there is just something in the process that makes it too easy for kids (and adults) to over-borrow.  I realize fees can be expensive (they are here  in NC anyway) but it's just so slimy.  I think it's the word they use:  "AWARD" like it's a gift - a scholarship- a present. No, an award is none of those things, it's a LOAN.  I honestly don't think it's obvious to everyone.

Edit, I found on Northeastern's website a really good breakdown of the "award" letter as well as a sample. Not sure how to screenshot- but here's the link - it's worth checking out. https://studentfinance.northeastern.edu/...our-award/


The difference between Everest and a community college was that you actually needed to take out tens of thousands just to cover tuition. It was not a cheap career school. I believe ITT Tech was charging over $40k for associate's programs. They charged more than the max someone could get in financial aid, so students signed for high-interest loans directly from the school. 

If a school's tuition for an associate's degree is more expensive than a new car, then run!
PhD (in progress)
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AAS, AS, BA, and BS
CLEP
Intro Psych 70, US His I 64, Intro Soc 63, Intro Edu Psych 70, A&I Lit 64, Bio 68, Prin Man 69, Prin Mar 68
DSST
Life Dev Psych 62, Fund Coun 68, Intro Comp 469, Intro Astr 56, Env & Hum 70, HTYH 456, MIS 451, Prin Sup 453, HRM 62, Bus Eth 458
ALEKS
Int Alg, Coll Alg
TEEX
4 credits
TECEP
Fed Inc Tax, Sci of Nutr, Micro, Strat Man, Med Term, Pub Relations
CSU
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SL
Intro to Comm, Microbio, Acc I
Uexcel
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