Looking for help developing a roadmap to a medical school-friendly degree

[muu9]

Hi there! 

Just wondering, but is there a particular reason you are going this route as opposed to a B&M college? 

That answer aside, perhaps you can consider completing your BA/BS in a field that works for you, and then apply for admission to a post-bacc program specifically for working on pre-reqs. Check out this list: https://www.uab.edu/medicine/home/images...Nation.pdf 
Or even consider a master's degree before med school.

The latter will be online just like the big three for the forseeable future, but more expensive and with stingier credit policies. I suppose the real question is why would I go to a "B&M" college when I could go this route?


The post-bacc is a good idea I didn't think of. If it turns out no med schools want someone with an online degree, I can always go to one - not necessarily for the prereqs, but for the presitge.

I think you're making a huge category error, indigoshuffle.

That's just what I was suspecting, hence my (slightly more tactful  ) reply. See, this is what happens when I reply without reading the whole thread first.

Indigoshuffle, while its true that most middle to higher ranked medical schools look down on transfer credit of all kinds, many lower-tier and DO programs are more flexible as a result of getting more non-traditional applicants. Of course, it's certainly a possibility that I might get turned away since there's nothing forcing me to go down this risky, non-traditional route, but I have a hunch that next year's application cycle and the following ones will be much more online/transfer friendly.

Absolute worst case, I can always take a post-bacc and have something cool to talk about decades from now.

"Upper level" or "upper division" almost always means 300- or 400-level. Organic chemistry is typically – and if you're taking it from a two-year community college it's certainly – 200-level.

How do you think you might get bio labs?

Saylor, and as a general rule ACE, NCCRS, and the credit by examination options frequently discussed here, don't lead to grades on your ultimate transcripts. The biggest exception is that UExcels are graded and I believe those grades will appear on your transcripts at each of the Big Three.

Big thing to keep in mind: AMCAS and AACOMAS calculate GPA differently than your school will. See especially "Grades Included in AMCAS GPAs" on page 4 of the 2020 AMCAS Applicant Guide [pdf]. AP, CLEP, and "Other Test Credit" "are not included in AMCAS GPA calculations."

Charter Oak has expanded its bachelor's majors over the past several years beyond the longtime General Studies standby. There are now titled subject majors in about a dozen subjects, including Psychology, Sociology, and Health Care Administration.

The time for MCAT biochem will come. It's not now. Focus on the courses in front of you now

Thank you for the correction! I labelled it "upper level" since most online credit programs deem it too advanced for inclusion.

As for Biology:
I can use AP biology credit + some advanced biology courses/biology GRE to prove I understand the material (for less selective schools). Or:

https://www.doane.edu/open-learning/courses/biology-i
https://www.doane.edu/open-learning/courses/biology-ii
https://online.une.edu/science-prerequis...biology-i/
https://online.une.edu/science-prerequis...iology-ii/
Or my local CC.

Good to know R.E. AMCAS GPA scoring. Technically, this means that as long as I know what the AMCAS will consider to count towrds my GPA (and I will since you've shared that document), I'll be able to dedicate extra time to doing extra well in the courses I do transfer, which can only help my GPA.
Thank you as well for the update on COSC's offerings

Avoid doing these with clep, ace, nccrs, etc. And in person is favored over online. If you do online a 4 yr university would be better. So you could just do all these B&M or online actual classes from a Uni.

A better option though might to be to choose a school that accepts ace, etc. Like for example SNHU. And then do the courses I said above and then transfer as much as you can with alt credit. Because if you already have 40 credits at one school might make sense to finish your bachelors there. 

Either way no matter where you go clep, ace etc is perfect for non science gen eds and electives. However I am not a med student so if someone else says free electives with alt credit are bad listne to them.

No one can do in person right now, so I believe adcoms will be more understanding of online classes.
SNHU is an interesting idea, mostly for the recognized name, but the required 30 credits will be very expensive. I might rather go into a post-bacc, but either way, I can cross that bridge once I get to it. 

In my opinion, doing all of your classes in person, keeps an applicant's choices open. If OP wanted to become a nurse practitioner, then online would never be a problem or even a question. So I guess this brings up another question; does the OP want the title of MD/DO or are they genuinely interested in helping others as a practitioner?

Will you have ego issues being called a Nurse Practitioner or a Physician Assistant as opposed to “doctor “?
Does he want to do surgery? If so go to medical school, but if not, I would highly recommend that OP consider the amount of debt he will rack up. 

If you are "dying" to have the MD title, be prepared to pay for it with money (that you most likely don't have yet) and time. If you are willing to deal with the time, money, disappointments, setbacks that will surely await you on that path, then take the path that will open up the most doors for you in terms of sending out your application---which means avoiding doing things online.  

Keep in mind, this recommendation is coming from someone who is attending WGU. I have nothing against online classes, but medical school admission boards are extremely conservative and they think online prerequisites are easier. If it comes down to 2 applicants with the same GPA, MCAT, volunteer time, etc, they will start to dig deeper into stupid shit, like if you did anything online. It's dumb and unfair, but that's how it is for now.

Later on in my career, I would like to give back by leading health initiatives in my parent's country. When was the last time you heard of an NP creating or leading major public health initiatives? Building a hospital? Doing impactful research in scalable medicine?
I agree with you about medical schools' conservativeness when it comes to this stuff- but what I think might hurt my application even more than my educational provenance would be a lack of extracurricular activities, research, and good LoRs. Luckily, I can get 2 of the three at a post-bacc.

I just looked more into post bacc's, and I feel like they could be just what I need.

Anyways, ignoring for now the tricky question of clinical requirements and the audacity of this whole idea, can anyone recommend a roadmap for any non-professional degree programs at either COSC(preferable) or TESU? The ones on the wiki seem to be either outdated or non-functional.a

[Jonathan Whatley]

As for Biology:
I can use AP biology credit + some advanced biology courses/biology GRE to prove I understand the material (for less selective schools). Or:

https://www.doane.edu/open-learning/courses/biology-i
https://www.doane.edu/open-learning/courses/biology-ii
https://online.une.edu/science-prerequis...biology-i/
https://online.une.edu/science-prerequis...iology-ii/
Or my local CC.

Consider the bio sequence with labs attached to the sequence an enforced and fairly specific prerequisite. AP won't do it, bio GRE won't do it, and most UL bio courses wouldn't match closely enough what med schools are looking for in this domain. (An 8 sh sequence in human A&P generally would match, I think.)

Later on in my career, I would like to give back by leading health initiatives in my parent's country. When was the last time you heard of an NP creating or leading major public health initiatives? Building a hospital? Doing impactful research in scalable medicine?

The most respected global health organization among the people I know in health and medicine, easy, is Partners In Health. Partners In Health has 18,000 employees and delivers health care to eight million people a year. They build hospitals in lower-income countries but they do so much more, large-scale and long-range health care delivery, policy, research, and education work across the world. For years, every time I order through Amazon, I've used an Amazon Smile link to give Partners In Health a small donation.

Partners In Health's CEO is a nurse, promoted to CEO from the combined roles of Chief of Clinical Operations and Chief Nursing Officer:

Dr. Davis holds a doctorate in nursing and has a long history of serving the poor and marginalized […]

After joining the organization in 2010, Dr. Davis was instrumental in the planning and opening of Hôpital Universitaire de Mirebalais, a 300-bed teaching hospital in Haiti. When PIH entered West Africa to help address the Ebola epidemic, Dr. Davis, then Chief Nursing Officer and a member of the executive leadership team, led the organization’s Ebola response.

[MSK9]

1. I would avoid doing anything online unless you are specifically targeting Caribbean medical schools. Most states except for Florida and couple others will not allow conferment of an MD medical license if your education is done online. Oh, and by the way, if you take online pre-requisites at a community college and try to pass that off, the medical admissions board WILL FIND OUT because they have connections with people in every community college and they screen your classes very carefully. 

I think there's a mistaken grouping of Caribbean medical schools and online medical schools in this first statement. No wholly online medical schools should be considered legitimate and the one or two that may be easily found online are super sketchy anyway. The "big four" Caribbean schools match successfully every year.

Secondly, many successfully accepted/admitted students have pre-requisites taken at community colleges. Gotta throw the BS flag up on that one. I know successful applicants who have done this. Additionally, I've been told so directly by medical school admissions directors. That said, university classes are more common with applicants just given the more traditional pre-medical path.

2. There is Oceania, and Doane, UNE and a couple of others, but I would just go to a state university. 

State university or community colleges will make learning the material easier, I think. Learning these subjects online with home labs isn't for the faint of heart. It also tends to be more expensive.

3. If you're older (35 years old and up) and have clinical exposure, start with a community college and transfer to a state Uni to finish off things like biochem and genetics to show that you can handle Uni level coursework. 

University level coursework rigor isn't consistent. This really just depends on what university one attended, some are easier than others. Again, university classes aren't the end-all and this has been confirmed to me directly from admissions directors.

4. If you're young, you need to go straight to Uni and keep straight A's.

Straight A's are recommended for any medical school applicant but less than A's are not a death sentence by any means.

5. Medical admission boards and medical schools, in general, are very conservative and do not have a high opinion of anyone doing anything online. I don't agree with it, and there is research to show online learning is just as good if not better in some ways, but it's how it is for the foreseeable future. Thankfully, the whole COVID thing is making schools look at online classes differently, but that's another topic.

This used to be the case but is no longer.  See both of my previous answers and the admissions requirements of individual medical programs (their websites) for what is acceptable. Also, don't be afraid to reach out directly to admissions directors through e-mail.

6. Now when you take that, with the unjustified high cost of university classes, you better think long and hard if medical school is worth it. 
I, personally, don't believe in "good debt" and I think mortgages and student loans are the two biggest scams that bankers have foisted onto the American citizenry... and many of us fell for it. I think medical school is better for folks who already come from money and don't have to agonize about where the tuition money is coming from... just my two cents.

Medical school is expensive, no doubt. I'm not going to take a position on student loans in this thread but depending on what specialty one pursues, there's easily a high enough return on investment to tackle the debt. Believe it.

7. If you want a roadmap to medical school, do it the traditional way. Go to class "ass in seat", get straight A's, start studying for the MCAT while you're doing your pre-requisites, score high on the MCAT (510-520 at least), show a 2-3 year long record of volunteer work, have clinical experience, build relationships with professors over 2-4 years so you can get meaningful recommendation letters, apply, and cross your fingers. And while you're doing all of that, keep this in mind...

https://tinyurl.com/yasgouno

The traditional way is, without a doubt, the easiest path. The road to medical school can definitely be negotiated in a non-linear fashion for those that dare, however. "Ass in the seat" makes learning the "hard sciences" much easier. Studying for the MCAT during prerequisites can be helpful but can also be harmful if you don't understand what you're studying; do what's right for you. Straight A's are again not absolutely necessary but the process easier in any number of ways. Volunteer work is a must, clinical experiences are good but not critical. Networking is always good and meaningful recommendation letters help too.

If you want to be a doctor, go forth and become a doctor. Don't let anyone discourage you, least of all the pre-med cult over at SDN. Do whatever is necessary and do not take "no" for an answer.

I went through indigoshuffle's post and numbered/responded to each point, @muu9. I also bumped my roadmap thread in the graduate section for your viewing pleasure. Please turn private messaging on and shoot me another one once you have.

See quoted section above.

---

Dr. Davis holds a doctorate in nursing and has a long history of serving the poor and marginalized […]

I only scanned most of the other responses after indigoshuffle's but I just wanted to point out that most Nurse Practitioners are referred to as Nurse Practitioner, and not "Doctor" in a medical setting since the educational title betrays the scope of care and training. Many medical establishments will not allow the usage of the title for reasons of patient confusion.

[Jonathan Whatley]

---

Dr. Davis holds a doctorate in nursing and has a long history of serving the poor and marginalized […]

I only scanned most of the other responses after indigoshuffle's but I just wanted to point out that most Nurse Practitioners are referred to as Nurse Practitioner, and not "Doctor" in a medical setting since the educational title betrays the scope of care and training. Many medical establishments will not allow the usage of the title for reasons of patient confusion.

True in patient care settings! The quote is from the announcement of her appointment as CEO.

[indigoshuffle]

Later on in my career, I would like to give back by leading health initiatives in my parent's country. When was the last time you heard of an NP creating or leading major public health initiatives? Building a hospital? Doing impactful research in scalable medicine?
I agree with you about medical schools' conservativeness when it comes to this stuff- but what I think might hurt my application even more than my educational provenance would be a lack of extracurricular activities, research, and good LoRs. Luckily, I can get 2 of the three at a post-bacc.

I just looked more into post bacc's, and I feel like they could be just what I need.

Anyways, ignoring for now the tricky question of clinical requirements and the audacity of this whole idea, can anyone recommend a roadmap for any non-professional degree programs at either COSC(preferable) or TESU? The ones on the wiki seem to be either outdated or non-functional.a

I would go with a post bacc program as this will open more doors in terms of your admission. Yes you can go to DO, which is the route I might go myself, but that doesn't mean it's easier.

As for your comment about nurses, well...I just have to say you might not know what you're talking about there. But you can do a google search for yourself.

---

If you want to be a doctor, go forth and become a doctor. Don't let anyone discourage you, least of all the pre-med cult over at SDN. Do whatever is necessary and do not take "no" for an answer.

I went through indigoshuffle's post and numbered/responded to each point, @muu9. I also bumped my roadmap thread in the graduate section for your viewing pleasure. Please turn private messaging on and shoot me another one once you have.

Hey MSK9!! Have you decided to go to St. George? You are definitely an inspiration on these forums... to me at least.
And yes, STAY OFF OF SDN. It's mostly a waste of time.

I'm hoping the COVID thing will help medical school admission boards see online courses and alternate credits in a different light.

[MSK9]

@indigoshuffe I've been remiss in my updating of the roadmap thread I made.  I ended up on the waiting list at two US schools and had a full-on acceptance from St. George's with a scholarship offer. Overall, I'm happy with the way things turned out, aside from the $3500 medical school application scam/racket of course. People at SDN love to trash St. George's, but every actual non-alumni physician I've talked to has had nothing but good things to say.

Having gone from no degree at all in 2017 to making the cut for three schools has a lot of meaning for me.  Now that I've been through an application cycle (and though I'm still up for a spot at the other two schools), I've decided on St. George's after much discussion and consideration. The scholarship they offered is quite generous and their alumni network is massive.

Thank you for the complement. I'm humbled.

[anewmanx]

@indigoshuffe I've been remiss in my updating of the roadmap thread I made.  I ended up on the waiting list at two US schools and had a full-on acceptance from St. George's with a scholarship offer. Overall, I'm happy with the way things turned out, aside from the $3500 medical school application scam/racket of course. People at SDN love to trash St. George's, but every actual non-alumni physician I've talked to has had nothing but good things to say.

Having gone from no degree at all in 2017 to making the cut for three schools has a lot of meaning for me.  Now that I've been through an application cycle (and though I'm still up for a spot at the other two schools), I've decided on St. George's after much discussion and consideration. The scholarship they offered is quite generous and their alumni network is massive.

Thank you for the complement. I'm humbled.

Congrats! How I would have loved to become a physician.

[MSK9]

Congrats! How I would have loved to become a physician.

Thank you. It's never too late. I would rather be an older student chasing my dreams than be an old man lamenting that I hadn't.

[anewmanx]

Congrats! How I would have loved to become a physician.

Thank you. It's never too late. I would rather be an older student chasing my dreams than be an old man lamenting that I hadn't.

I may just do that when my kids get a little older. I have 4 under the age of 6. I’m hoping to pursue a direct entry msn degree followed by np cert in the meantime and then pursue md/do if I’m unhappy as a mid level provider. My undergrad degree was 4.0 last 3 years, but my first year of cc 15 years before that I failed out due to a severely ill child. I’d have to bring my science gpa up quite a bit, quiiiiite a bit to apply to medical school as it stands.

[MSK9]

[quote pid='308818' dateline='1589611985']
I may just do that when my kids get a little older. I have 4 under the age of 6. I’m hoping to pursue a direct entry msn degree followed by np cert in the meantime and then pursue md/do if I’m unhappy as a mid level provider. My undergrad degree was 4.0 last 3 years, but my first year of cc 15 years before that I failed out due to a severely ill child. I’d have to bring my science gpa up quite a bit, quiiiiite a bit to apply to medical school as it stands.
[/quote]

That's a linear, practical plan toward NP. Real life happens and not everyone is able to have a "perfect" academic record. The important thing is that you fix what you can fix and move forward toward your goal. Depending on where you're willing to work (location and specialty), NP can be very lucrative too. The physician path can be a huge hassle, that only gets bigger as you get into internship/residency.