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Problems with Leadership Programs
#11
I see quite a few generalities thrown around. I don't have a dog in this fight, but as someone who is currently in a program with a focus on leadership I will note that:

1.) Leadership is a bit of a vague concept, but there are quite a few concrete leadership theories out there. Quite a few fields are defined around vague concepts (Criminal Justice included). Most programs focus on the application of these theories. I would say my larger issue with the field as a whole is the effect of a subjects culture on most existing survey instruments (but this is a problem not isolated to this field).

2.) Adult learners have poor retention rates across fields. IMHO this is largely caused by teaching adults using pedagogic methods instead of andragogical methods.

3.) I have seen amazing leaders in the public and private sector. Profit and non-profit. I don't believe there is a case for causation here.

I'm not advocating for leadership programs, or even leadership studies; however, I've found that by adapting my leadership style to match my employees/organization/etc I've become more effective. Could I have received this benefit from an org psych program? Sure! Could I have picked it up as I went? Maybe.

Dismissing all programs and leadership studies in such a broad way without reviewing them individually seems a bit rash.
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#12
(06-15-2018, 03:46 PM)mednat Wrote: I see quite a few generalities thrown around.  I don't have a dog in this fight, but as someone who is currently in a program with a focus on leadership I will note that:

1.) Leadership is a bit of a vague concept, but there are quite a few concrete leadership theories out there.  Quite a few fields are defined around vague concepts (Criminal Justice included).  Most programs focus on the application of these theories. I would say my larger issue with the field as a whole is the effect of a subjects culture on most existing survey instruments (but this is a problem not isolated to this field).

2.) Adult learners have poor retention rates across fields. IMHO this is largely caused by teaching adults using pedagogic methods instead of andragogical methods.

3.) I have seen amazing leaders in the public and private sector.  Profit and non-profit.  I don't believe there is a case for causation here.

I'm not advocating for leadership programs, or even leadership studies; however, I've found that by adapting my leadership style to match my employees/organization/etc I've become more effective.  Could I have received this benefit from an org psych program?  Sure!  Could I have picked it up as I went?  Maybe.  

Dismissing all programs and leadership studies in such a broad way without reviewing them individually seems a bit rash.

Criminal justice is not a vague concept. I said that leadership, in and of itself, is vague, not that it is based on vague theories. Criminal justice is a very real system that you can see with your own eyes; it's not a concept.
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#13
I think leadership is like entrepreneurship, some can be taught, most is learned through real life experience.
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#14
I think some have a talent for leadership and others don't. The theories and research are just there to guide your decisions.
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MS, MSS and Graduate Cert
AAS, AS, BA, and BS
CLEP
Intro Psych 70, US His I 64, Intro Soc 63, Intro Edu Psych 70, A&I Lit 64, Bio 68, Prin Man 69, Prin Mar 68
DSST
Life Dev Psych 62, Fund Coun 68, Intro Comp 469, Intro Astr 56, Env & Hum 70, HTYH 456, MIS 451, Prin Sup 453, HRM 62, Bus Eth 458
ALEKS
Int Alg, Coll Alg
TEEX
4 credits
TECEP
Fed Inc Tax, Sci of Nutr, Micro, Strat Man, Med Term, Pub Relations
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#15
(06-15-2018, 02:31 PM)Life Long Learning Wrote: ChinaMart executives manage from ivory towers while NOT on food stamps and making 1188-times their common workers.  Real leadership Huh
    http://money.cnn.com/2018/04/23/news/com...index.html

I'm not seeing your point here.  So managers have to be on food stamps to be good leaders?

I've worked plenty of places where the CEO makes a lot more than I do, and you know what - I didn't care!  I don't look at what other people are doing, I only look at what I'm making.  If I think I can make more elsewhere, I'll find another job.  If I don't, then I stay where I'm at.  If someone at Walmart doesn't like what the job is paying, they can go find a better job.  If they can't find a better job, and this is the very best job that they can get, then they should either move, or improve their skills, not demand that they get more money for the job they have.  Just my view on life.

Either way, a CEO making a thousand or million times more than the lowest-paid hourly employees is based on market rates.  He/she was hired because it was thought they'd do something good for the company, including the employees.  If that's not the case, then he/she will be fired.

All of that to say that your examples STILL have nothing to do with leadership.
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#16
I don’t have the patience for leadership. At least in healthcare. I apparently expect “too much” of people in regards to knowledge of their job function. I’m better at providing analytics to the leadership team than actually filling those roles. I just don’t get why the same person needs to be educated on the exact same extremely basic protocol a dozen times when the education is presented in half a dozen different ways to accommodate for various learning styles: a copy of the policy, a job aid with screen shots, an in person class, an explanation of downstream effects, an example of when it was performed incorrectly and a one-on-one tutorial to address it, and a PowerPoint reference guide. Drives me up a wall.
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#17
(06-16-2018, 03:19 AM)Sparklette Wrote: I don’t have the patience for leadership. At least in healthcare. I apparently expect “too much” of people in regards to knowledge of their job function. I’m better at providing analytics to the leadership team than actually filling those roles. I just don’t get why the same person needs to be educated on the exact same extremely basic protocol a dozen times when the education is presented in half a dozen different ways to accommodate for various learning styles: a copy of the policy, a job aid with screen shots, an in person class, an explanation of downstream effects, an example of when it was performed incorrectly and a one-on-one tutorial to address it, and a PowerPoint reference guide. Drives me up a wall.

I'm with you, I've not a lot of patience for that kind of thing.  While I don't mind teaching someone something, I get irritated at having to go over things again and again.  I also prefer to sit at my computer and get stuff done, rather than spend a lot of time talking to people all the time.
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EXAMS: TECEP Tech Wrtg, Comp II, LA Math, PR, Computers  DSST Computers, Pers Fin  CLEP Mgmt, Mktg
COURSES: TESU Capstone  Study.com Pers Fin, Microecon, Stats  Ed4Credit Acct 2  PF Fin Mgmt  ALEKS Int & Coll Alg  Sophia Proj Mgmt The Institutes - Ins Ethics  Kaplan PLA
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#18
Introverts can be very good leaders of competent extroverts because they're less likely to micromanage.
Graduate of Not VUL or ENEB
MS, MSS and Graduate Cert
AAS, AS, BA, and BS
CLEP
Intro Psych 70, US His I 64, Intro Soc 63, Intro Edu Psych 70, A&I Lit 64, Bio 68, Prin Man 69, Prin Mar 68
DSST
Life Dev Psych 62, Fund Coun 68, Intro Comp 469, Intro Astr 56, Env & Hum 70, HTYH 456, MIS 451, Prin Sup 453, HRM 62, Bus Eth 458
ALEKS
Int Alg, Coll Alg
TEEX
4 credits
TECEP
Fed Inc Tax, Sci of Nutr, Micro, Strat Man, Med Term, Pub Relations
CSU
Sys Analysis & Design, Programming, Cyber
SL
Intro to Comm, Microbio, Acc I
Uexcel
A&P
Davar
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#19
(06-16-2018, 01:57 PM)sanantone Wrote: Introverts can be very good leaders of competent extroverts because they're less likely to micromanage.

Is that the key?  So when looking for a job, I should look for an introvert as a boss!!!  That is some good stuff right there, because I HATE being micromanaged.  And now that I think about it, my best bosses have all been introverts!  I've never even thought about that before.
TESU BSBA/HR 2018 - WVNCC BOG AAS 2017 - GGU Cert in Mgmt 2000
EXAMS: TECEP Tech Wrtg, Comp II, LA Math, PR, Computers  DSST Computers, Pers Fin  CLEP Mgmt, Mktg
COURSES: TESU Capstone  Study.com Pers Fin, Microecon, Stats  Ed4Credit Acct 2  PF Fin Mgmt  ALEKS Int & Coll Alg  Sophia Proj Mgmt The Institutes - Ins Ethics  Kaplan PLA
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#20
(06-15-2018, 04:04 PM)sanantone Wrote: Criminal justice is not a vague concept. I said that leadership, in and of itself, is vague, not that it is based on vague theories. Criminal justice is a very real system that you can see with your own eyes; it's not a concept.

I said Criminal Justice, in and of itself, is vague.  I agree the criminal justice system is as visible as leadership development programs. 

It is clear you have a distaste for these programs.  I'm not fully convinced it's an intellectual distaste as opposed to an emotional one.  Perhaps you've been a part of programs that you found inadequate, or maybe you've done research on the effectiveness of the programs -- I'm not sure.  All I can say for sure is, I have found use from one of these programs.  Did it make me an awesome leader with no other input?  Of course not!  Does that make it a waste of time?  Not for me.
Currently studying for: Still deciding.

Done!
2020 - Harvard Extension School - ALM IT Management 
2019 - Harvard Extension School - Graduate Certificate Data Science
2018 - Harvard Extension School - Graduate Certificate Cyber Security
2016 - WGU - MBA Mgmt & Strategy
2015 - Thomas Edison State College - BSBA Marketing & CIS
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