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Student Loan Debt
#11
(11-15-2020, 04:52 PM)Merlin Wrote:
(11-15-2020, 04:37 PM)ss20ts Wrote: I wouldn't count on anything until this actually makes it's way through Congress and they pay some bills. Until then, it's all a hope and a dream.

For sure. Until it's actually a done deal, don't rack up debt. I assume the folks talking about racking up debt are joking and poking fun at this more than anything.

Some of us already have loads of student loans from years ago unfortunately.
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#12
(11-15-2020, 04:07 PM)Merlin Wrote: Prior to the 1980's, tuition was super low. Low enough that average families could afford to send their kids to college without student loans. When the government started reducing funding to colleges, tuition prices started to spike. This would ideally reverse that trend or make college inexpensive or tuition-free for local students, like schools in Europe.

I hate to tell you this, but it's not only the reduction in funding that's the problem; rising tuition "just happened" to coincide with the rise in the amount of federal loans students could get.  The Federal Reserve Bank of NY did a study that found that "for every new dollar of federal student aid, tuition is raised by 65 cents."  https://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2015/0...f41386794a

Throwing money at the problem isn't going to fix it, we need to come up with some new ideas.  And get rid of a LOT of bloat.  Colleges have an unimaginable amount of crap that they spend money on that has nothing to do with students, teachers, instruction, or anything at all except more administrative bloat that helps nobody.
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#13
(11-15-2020, 08:55 PM)dfrecore Wrote: I hate to tell you this, but it's not only the reduction in funding that's the problem; rising tuition "just happened" to coincide with the rise in the amount of federal loans students could get. The Federal Reserve Bank of NY did a study that found that "for every new dollar of federal student aid, tuition is raised by 65 cents." https://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2015/0...f41386794a

Throwing money at the problem isn't going to fix it, we need to come up with some new ideas. And get rid of a LOT of bloat. Colleges have an unimaginable amount of crap that they spend money on that has nothing to do with students, teachers, instruction, or anything at all except more administrative bloat that helps nobody.

Oh, I understand that. I'd never advocate for just throwing money at a problem. There always needs to be rules and controls in place. Clearly, there is no simple solution and I didn't mean to oversimply it. We're all speculating here anyway, but all I'm saying is it would be nice if college was affordable again so local students didn't need to take loans in the first place. At least not for their first bachelor's degree, since that is effectively the new minimum bar, replacing the high school diploma in modern hiring practices. It would also be nice if the US were on an even playing field with European countries when it comes to secondary education. Our kids should have the option to attend a local college without putting themselves or their parents in lifetime debt.

Obviously, with whatever system is put in place, reforms are in order. If federal student aid is removed from the table, federal funding can be made conditional on schools agreeing to reforms, controls, and audits to reduce bloat and limit frivolous spending of tax dollars. Schools that don't support those reforms can go private and charge whatever they want in tuition. They just won't receive federal funding.

Of course, I'm not an education policymaker so I have no idea what reforms need to be in place, but I'm sure there is a way to make it work. I think the worst option is to just forgive academic debt since that will just accelerate the current problems.
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#14
(11-16-2020, 02:21 AM)Merlin Wrote: ...all I'm saying is it would be nice if college was affordable again so local students didn't need to take loans in the first place. At least not for their first bachelor's degree, since that is effectively the new minimum bar, replacing the high school diploma in modern hiring practices. It would also be nice if the US were on an even playing field with European countries when it comes to secondary education. Our kids should have the option to attend a local college without putting themselves or their parents in lifetime debt.
So first, I don't think it's a minimum bar, only 30% of the US has a bachelor's degree.  So it cannot be "the bar" because they wouldn't ever be able to hire.
Second, though, it totally doable - my kids won't be going into debt for college, because we've told them since they were little that it's not an option.  When you say that, and they buy in, then they change their goals.  My older one wants an AA and to be something that only needs a 1-year program added on after the AA (or less than an AA, but pre-reqs need to be done and for my kid, that's 2 years).  Community college it is.  So no debt, that's easily paid for, even if she had to pay for it herself (she works 30 hours a week and makes enough to pay for college).  My younger one wants to go into the military, and once he decided that he did not want to go to 4yrs of college (he does NOT love school), then it's a matter of possibly getting an AA through COSC or maybe Snow College before he enlists. He may even opt to get a 4yr degree through one of the big 3 if he wants to spend a few more months on it, we will see.  Either way, we'll pay, but he works 20+ hours a week, and can pay for that as well.
The point is, though, that you do not HAVE to mortgage your future to pay for college.  You can find all kinds of ways to pay your way through, starting with community college, inexpensive online college, working your way through college, taking a year off to save up money to pay for college, choosing the closest local school instead of going away to school, etc.  Once you say "I'm not going into debt for this" it certainly makes it easier not to go into debt.  Kind of like when you buy a car - when my kids bought their cars, debt was not an option, so they choose cars in their price range.
Not saying that NOT going into debt and paying for it is easy, but thinking that you get to go to your dream school and then paying for it for 20+ years isn't easy either.  I'll err on the side of caution here.  I blame high schools for making it seem like you HAVE to go to college, and I blame parents for letting kids go to "dream" schools without counting the costs.  If everyone went to their local college, lived at home, and paid cash, the whole college thing would change entirely. For the better.
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#15
(11-16-2020, 04:11 PM)dfrecore Wrote:
(11-16-2020, 02:21 AM)Merlin Wrote: ...all I'm saying is it would be nice if college was affordable again so local students didn't need to take loans in the first place. At least not for their first bachelor's degree, since that is effectively the new minimum bar, replacing the high school diploma in modern hiring practices. It would also be nice if the US were on an even playing field with European countries when it comes to secondary education. Our kids should have the option to attend a local college without putting themselves or their parents in lifetime debt.
So first, I don't think it's a minimum bar, only 30% of the US has a bachelor's degree.  So it cannot be "the bar" because they wouldn't ever be able to hire.
Second, though, it totally doable - my kids won't be going into debt for college, because we've told them since they were little that it's not an option.  When you say that, and they buy in, then they change their goals.  My older one wants an AA and to be something that only needs a 1-year program added on after the AA (or less than an AA, but pre-reqs need to be done and for my kid, that's 2 years).  Community college it is.  So no debt, that's easily paid for, even if she had to pay for it herself (she works 30 hours a week and makes enough to pay for college).  My younger one wants to go into the military, and once he decided that he did not want to go to 4yrs of college (he does NOT love school), then it's a matter of possibly getting an AA through COSC or maybe Snow College before he enlists. He may even opt to get a 4yr degree through one of the big 3 if he wants to spend a few more months on it, we will see.  Either way, we'll pay, but he works 20+ hours a week, and can pay for that as well.
The point is, though, that you do not HAVE to mortgage your future to pay for college.  You can find all kinds of ways to pay your way through, starting with community college, inexpensive online college, working your way through college, taking a year off to save up money to pay for college, choosing the closest local school instead of going away to school, etc.  Once you say "I'm not going into debt for this" it certainly makes it easier not to go into debt.  Kind of like when you buy a car - when my kids bought their cars, debt was not an option, so they choose cars in their price range.
Not saying that NOT going into debt and paying for it is easy, but thinking that you get to go to your dream school and then paying for it for 20+ years isn't easy either.  I'll err on the side of caution here.  I blame high schools for making it seem like you HAVE to go to college, and I blame parents for letting kids go to "dream" schools without counting the costs.  If everyone went to their local college, lived at home, and paid cash, the whole college thing would change entirely. For the better.

It's great that you are able to provide all of this funding for your children. Many parents simply cannot. Many kids also can't work during high school because of sports and activities. Not having a license or access to a car is also an issue for many kids. 

Community college isn't all it's cracked up to be in many states either. Many times those credits can't be transferred to a 4 year b&m school unfortunately. SUNY is like that. They promise you how easy transferring is and how wonderful it is. In reality, if you graduate with an associate degree, you're guaranteed admission into a SUNY school. You're not guaranteed entry into your desired program either. And you will not receive those 60+ credits in transfer credit. The reality is that you'll still be at the 4 year SUNY for 4 years paying a much higher amount in tuition and fees. 

Many people also don't live anywhere near a 4 year school. Where I live now, we do have an elite 4 year school. Tuition is about $60K. Closest state school is well over an hour away. It's a small state school and doesn't have a massive range of majors. Many students simply don't have the option to stay home and go to a local college especially a state school.

Hopefully, with technology and COVID this will bring about real changes to the higher education industry. So many school have been offering online degrees at a tuition reduction which is awesome. Throw in CBE programs and this opens the doors wide open for adult learners. Many people are not ready at 18-20 years old to study for a degree and pick a major that will be useful the rest of their life. They don't even know who they are yet or what path they'll end up going down.
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#16
(11-16-2020, 06:51 PM)ss20ts Wrote: It's great that you are able to provide all of this funding for your children. Many parents simply cannot. Many kids also can't work during high school because of sports and activities. Not having a license or access to a car is also an issue for many kids. 

Community college isn't all it's cracked up to be in many states either. Many times those credits can't be transferred to a 4 year b&m school unfortunately. SUNY is like that. They promise you how easy transferring is and how wonderful it is. In reality, if you graduate with an associate degree, you're guaranteed admission into a SUNY school. You're not guaranteed entry into your desired program either. And you will not receive those 60+ credits in transfer credit. The reality is that you'll still be at the 4 year SUNY for 4 years paying a much higher amount in tuition and fees. 

Many people also don't live anywhere near a 4 year school. Where I live now, we do have an elite 4 year school. Tuition is about $60K. Closest state school is well over an hour away. It's a small state school and doesn't have a massive range of majors. Many students simply don't have the option to stay home and go to a local college especially a state school.

Hopefully, with technology and COVID this will bring about real changes to the higher education industry. So many school have been offering online degrees at a tuition reduction which is awesome. Throw in CBE programs and this opens the doors wide open for adult learners. Many people are not ready at 18-20 years old to study for a degree and pick a major that will be useful the rest of their life. They don't even know who they are yet or what path they'll end up going down.

I understand that not all parents can pay for college, and most places have help for those students in the name of Pell grants.  They can also get scholarships if they work at it.

My kid college kid didn't work in high school as she played 3 sports.  But she works now, and makes enough to pay for college, even if we didn't pay for her.  My other kid as well (he is in HS, but is doing 100% virtual leaving plenty of time to work right now).

But even if we didn't pay, we STILL would not let them go into debt for college.  It is just NOT an option, under any circumstances.  Yes, for some people, there will be challenges to overcome.  If you can't get to a job, then you probably don't have the tenacity to get to classes every day either.  I've seen MANY kids riding bikes or skateboards to jobs in my day.

And if you don't live near a school, then you may have to go online, or save up for 2-3 years to pay for it.  It's probably better to NOT go to school at 18 if that's what you need to do.

Many, many states offer easy transfers into a 4yr - CA, TX, NC, CO all do that I'm aware of, and that's just off the top of my head.  All kinds of programs out there, including 3+1's (where you do 3 years at a CC and only 1 year at the 4yr school) - and they don't only have these programs for in-state (Franklin University, for instance, has partnerships with 237 CC's in 30 states; they also take ACE credit).

All I'm saying is, you do NOT have to go to college, you don't have to go straight to a 4yr school, you don't have to go to your dream school to make life worth living - and you do NOT have to go into debt to get a college degree.  You just don't.
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