Universal Basic Income

[sanantone]

Some comments within this thread are way beneath this forum - instead of simply bloviating anecdotal evidence for your claims try researching the subject - it isn't as if research has not been conducted - after all we are not the only generation and country in the history of civilization to experience these issues...this is a good place for you to start Free Market Welfare https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5...IT_WEB.pdf

Interesting paper, but there is one major problem. It's about the UK. Most of the posts in this thread are specific to the U.S. Plus, this article has said that the U.S. has experimented with a form of welfare that is similar to what they're proposing.

[skyfall123]

Interesting paper, but there is one major problem. It's about the UK. Most of the posts in this thread are specific to the U.S. Plus, this article has said that the U.S. has experimented with a form of welfare that is similar to what they're proposing.

I thought the thread (and therefore the comments) was supposed to be about the idea of Universal Basic Income, which is not a new idea or a US specific idea. I thought it might be refreshing to read a well thought out paper about UBI and the challenges all countries face in implementing a version of it in today's economic and political climate. Here is shorter version of the same subject http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/0...sic-income

[sanantone]

I thought the thread (and therefore the comments) was supposed to be about the idea of Universal Basic Income, which is not a new idea or a US specific idea. I thought it might be refreshing to read a well thought out paper about UBI and the challenges all countries face in implementing a version of it in today's economic and political climate. Here is shorter version of the same subject http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/0...sic-income

Yeah, but it got off topic. LOL

[skyfall123]

Yeah, but it got off topic. LOL

Yeah I was surprised you didn't ask the following in response to

In my 20's I paid an atrocious amount of income tax up to $60,000 annually not to mention the $15,000 that I sent to medicare and social security.

If you truly paid $60,000 in income tax in a year you would have had to declare a net income(after deductions) of at least $228,204 based on 2012 tax rates...which means your gross would have been significantly more. Then there is the matter of owning the "S Corp". Any accountant worth their salt would have at the minimum recommended that you establish a solo401K which would allow you to defer a minimum of $18K through employee salary deferral and contribute up to 25% of your income as an employer contribution up to a max of around $49K. That $49K would have come off your income before taxes. So now your are up to having an income of close to $300,000 per year as a twenty something.You also say you contributed $15,000 in SS and medicare tax a year. In order to claim that you would have had to declare a salary minimum of $120,000 or more a year since the employee portion of that would max out around $7500 (payroll deductions for SS and medicare cease over $120,000) , so I assume in order to get to the $15,000 per year you claim to have paid, you are counting $7500 as the SS and Medicare taxes you would have paid as owner of the "S Corp" and the other $7500 as employee of the "S Corp". Again you would have netted a significant amount over the $120,000 per year in your twenties. So the question becomes what happened that you were making so much money and paying so much in taxes (as you claim) making between (conservatively according to your numbers) $150,000K to $300,000K + per year in your twenties to now clearing just a hair over $100,00 now (as you claim). What went wrong?
The second question would be "Are you a slumlord?" as defined and discussed by this group of your peers https://www.biggerpockets.com/renewsblog...-slumlord/

[videogamesrock]

In my twenties I sold home phone service, long distance, and internet through call centers calling people. The robo dialing was made mainly illegal through law changes. The combination of the dying home phone and the law changes for calling people made that venture come to an end. I didn't want a solo 401k because I didn't want to defer access or income for 40+ years not mention the stock market tanking during the financial crisis I could have lost it all. But I'm glad it all happened because I went from traveling to meet with clients and working 60+ hours to now working about 4 hours a week doing bookkeeping from my phone at my pool. I occasionally make phone calls to plumbers or place work orders on thumbtack from my phone at the pool. I have a lot of free time which I use to align my interests and I fill it with taking course work at various different schools. But to go back to the circus of working 60+ hours and dealing with the FCC, no thank you. I'm slowly starting to self manage properties via distance using apps on my phone, this will lead to not having to pay someone 10% as a rental commission. Last year I started self managing one property that save me $190 a month in management fees. As each property comes up for rent I am slowly taking them over. My goal is to buy 1 rental per year for the rest of my life but probably only manage a maximum of 15 as I don't want it to turn into a full time job.

You've also heard me talk about my parents, I gave them quite a lot of money to live because they always had a sob story. That is something I wish I could go back and change. This year is the first year they are cut off from friends, family, and their church that they haves used all these years to pay their bills because they are poor. And remarkably they both have jobs and can take care of themselves. Whenever I hear about poor I know for the most part it's a scam.

I didn't bother reading your bigger pockets article because it seemed like you were making a bit of a dig. Well actually your whole post was a dig.

In conclusion before I rest on this thread.

1 The government gives food stamps, healthcare, section 8 vouchers because they are poor. But what occurs is they become so dependent on those handouts that they are stuck there and can't advance. What gets rewarded gets repeated.
2 you have people that bust their butt who don't want to be in number 1 and work many hours who have to pay 2&3 times for health insurance so people in number 1 don't have to. They have 1/3 of their check taken away on various taxes directly or indirectly and the other 1/3 goes to housing. Then they split cost of living with roommates or a spouse often leaving nothing left over an der stuck at #2.
3 you have people who have a great salary and health benefits who do not want 1&2 to advance because it greatly benefits them, less competition.
4 companies like Walmart who hire people in #1 who they pay little to so their salaries are subsidized by the government through food stamps which they happen to use at Walmart to buy groceries. Also people in #2 shop at Walmart to cut costs. So there is a great benefit for #3&4 to keep #1&2 where they are without advancement.
5 the super rich who invest in #4 well they don't want #1&2 to advance either.

Term limits on welfare will actually help #1 move to #2 and a fair and flat tax without government subsidized insurance will allow #2 move up. Eliminate all income discrimination programs and people will figure it out. -- written from a phone.

[skyfall123]

1 The government gives food stamps, healthcare, section 8 vouchers because they are poor. But what occurs is they become so dependent on those handouts that they are stuck there and can't advance. What gets rewarded gets repeated.
2 you have people that bust their butt who don't want to be in number 1 and work many hours who have to pay 2&3 times for health insurance so people in number 1 don't have to. They have 1/3 of their check taken away on various taxes directly or indirectly and the other 1/3 goes to housing. Then they split cost of living with roommates or a spouse often leaving nothing left over an der stuck at #2.
3 you have people who have a great salary and health benefits who do not want 1&2 to advance because it greatly benefits them, less competition.
4 companies like Walmart who hire people in #1 who they pay little to so their salaries are subsidized by the government through food stamps which they happen to use at Walmart to buy groceries. Also people in #2 shop at Walmart to cut costs. So there is a great benefit for #3&4 to keep #1&2 where they are without advancement.
5 the super rich who invest in #4 well they don't want #1&2 to advance either.

I'm not a WalMart shopper and I dont know anyone who has ever worked at WalMart but I appreciate the fact that you are using them as an example to make your point. This provides a good basis for the discussion. When discussing UBI it is probably a good idea to take the broadest view as discussed in Economics courses or by Economists. WalMart is a great example because they provide 1.4 million jobs in the US and like you said many, most of their employees qualify for government assistance and WalMart is likely one of the biggest benefactors of the SNAP program. Meaning that it is estimated that upwards of 20% of all food stamp purchases are made at WalMart. On top of that the 1.4 million jobs (many in rural areas) are vital to those communities or at least represent a large share of employment for certain areas. WalMart basically came in to many communities, changed the face and culture of many communities and drove many/most of the small competing businesses out of business (never to return). Then in an effort to maintain their survival WalMart said OMG we better get into the grocery business because our current model of selling cheap Chinese melamine furniture and other assorted cheap clothing manufactured overseas is unsustainable. So low and behold WalMart now starts competing with local grocery stores and drives the local community family run grocery stores that made up many of the communities. So WalMart almost single handedly changed the fabric of rural America. Now lets back up to the large scale economy. What happens when WalMart and all of those jobs in all of those communities goes away? Not going to happen? Amazon and others start accepting SNAP this summer, Amazon gets in the grocery business including fresh produce. So now you look ten years into the future.....instead of your parents getting into their car, they order their food online from Amazon or some other iteration and get it delivered to their door. Why waste the time, energy, gas etc....if you van have fresh products delivered to your door? WalMart goes the way of Sears, Kmart, shopping malls etc....the 1.4 million jobs lost evolve into 100,000 jobs at Amazon and 1.3 more jobs are lost. You get the point. Its really analogous to BlockBuster video and streaming movies? Remember having to actually get into your car, go to a store and rent a movie? Why go to WalMart when Amazon can deliver anything WalMart offers and about 1000 times more?

Economists realize that the time is fast approaching where there are will not be enough jobs for the population. There needs to be a structure in place, a baseline to handle the population. The "federal goverment" is trying to anticipate how things will play out in the next 20 years, while knowing there is a limit to what they can actually do. Does calling the "federal government" the enemy change or help anything? Not really. You can say "F" the poor....but that doesn't really solve the actual problem that is coming....

[skyfall123]

I didn't bother reading your bigger pockets article because it seemed like you were making a bit of a dig. Well actually your whole post was a dig.

I was actually more interested in how you viewed yourself, the article is a discussion amongst peers.

We all grow up with unique experiences that shape our belief systems. It sounds like you have been resourceful to make it to where you are. That is a compliment.

One way to summarize your life experiences is to state (I'm paraphrasing your various statements on this thread) I grew up poor, my parents set a bad example, I worked my way out of poverty on my own with no one's help, I take every opportunity/advantage of various govt programs (Pell Grant, Fannie Mae mortgage loans, ACA health care subsidies.) yet at the same time I view them with disdain because (fill in the blank). If fact I point to them as evidence of wasteful govt programs.

Another way to summarize your life experience would be to say - I'm grateful that I was born in the US. Even though my parents were poor,I am grateful for the lessons learned both good and bad that my parents taught me. I am grateful that although I came from humble begins I was able to find opportunites to earn a living. I am especially grateful that after having found success in my twenties I was able to reinvent myself and found success again in my late thirties.I was able to get into the business of buying properties then renting out those proerties to individuals. I am grateful that there was a program available (Fannie Mae)that I could use to accomplish this, for if that program did not exist, I would never have been able to secure market rate loans on multiple properties to establish a living income. In fact I can not say with certainty where I would be without that opportunity.I am grateful that the tax code allows generous allowances to encourage people to invest in properties the way I can. I realize that this type of business is not for everyone as there are a number of very serious risks involved. It is not a guarantee of success, but it is an opportunity for which I am grateful. I am also grateful that i am able to finish my degree and take advantage of a Pell Grant. I am humble and grateful.

Now back to the bigger picture. It is possible that Fannie/Freddie did a great job of stabilzing the housing markets after the bubble burst in 2007 through the policies they utilized. It is possible that by encouraging small investors like yourself who otherwise would never have the resources to purchase multiple properties, it benefits the economy as a whole. After all is it better for the economy as a whole to have 10,000 individuals like yourself owning and leasing 10-20 properties or 10 huge investment groups that own the same 1,000,000 properties?

There will always be people who take real advantage of govt programs. There will also people who greatly benefit from these programs. I'm sure you can point to any and every program there is and find flaws. It doesn't mean those programs are without benefit or necessary for the greater good.

[TrailRunr]

The Democratic Party in Caifornia killed single payer healthcare in California yesterday. The supposed excuse is trump and lack of financing details, but it's more about big pharma and big insurance buying off both parties. Union political influence is dying fast even in cali. With the widespread corruption and corporate influence in the on-paper-only progressive party in this country, there is no prayer UBI will come in our lifetime even with mass automation coming shortly. The country could be 100% democrats and it won't happen.

[sanantone]

I was actually more interested in how you viewed yourself, the article is a discussion amongst peers.

We all grow up with unique experiences that shape our belief systems. It sounds like you have been resourceful to make it to where you are. That is a compliment.

One way to summarize your life experiences is to state (I'm paraphrasing your various statements on this thread) I grew up poor, my parents set a bad example, I worked my way out of poverty on my own with no one's help, I take every opportunity/advantage of various govt programs (Pell Grant, Fannie Mae mortgage loans, ACA health care subsidies.) yet at the same time I view them with disdain because (fill in the blank). If fact I point to them as evidence of wasteful govt programs.

Another way to summarize your life experience would be to say - I'm grateful that I was born in the US. Even though my parents were poor,I am grateful for the lessons learned both good and bad that my parents taught me. I am grateful that although I came from humble begins I was able to find opportunites to earn a living. I am especially grateful that after having found success in my twenties I was able to reinvent myself and found success again in my late thirties.I was able to get into the business of buying properties then renting out those proerties to individuals. I am grateful that there was a program available (Fannie Mae)that I could use to accomplish this, for if that program did not exist, I would never have been able to secure market rate loans on multiple properties to establish a living income. In fact I can not say with certainty where I would be without that opportunity.I am grateful that the tax code allows generous allowances to encourage people to invest in properties the way I can. I realize that this type of business is not for everyone as there are a number of very serious risks involved. It is not a guarantee of success, but it is an opportunity for which I am grateful. I am also grateful that i am able to finish my degree and take advantage of a Pell Grant. I am humble and grateful.

Now back to the bigger picture. It is possible that Fannie/Freddie did a great job of stabilzing the housing markets after the bubble burst in 2007 through the policies they utilized. It is possible that by encouraging small investors like yourself who otherwise would never have the resources to purchase multiple properties, it benefits the economy as a whole. After all is it better for the economy as a whole to have 10,000 individuals like yourself owning and leasing 10-20 properties or 10 huge investment groups that own the same 1,000,000 properties?

There will always be people who take real advantage of govt programs. There will also people who greatly benefit from these programs. I'm sure you can point to any and every program there is and find flaws. It doesn't mean those programs are without benefit or necessary for the greater good.

I can't like your post until the forum is updated.

The Democratic Party in Caifornia killed single payer healthcare in California yesterday. The supposed excuse is trump and lack of financing details, but it's more about big pharma and big insurance buying off both parties. Union political influence is dying fast even in cali. With the widespread corruption and corporate influence in the on-paper-only progressive party in this country, there is no prayer UBI will come in our lifetime even with mass automation coming shortly. The country could be 100% democrats and it won't happen.

What's considered left in this country is middle of the road in most other Western countries. Even conservatives in Canada support single payer health insurance.

[Collegelady2]

I can't like your post until the forum is updated.





What's considered left in this country is middle of the road in most other Western countries. Even conservatives in Canada support single payer health insurance.

I consider myself Republican even I think we should have a single payer system. I also work in the insurance industry probably not the best thing for me to want single payer considering I sell health insurance.