trade school instead of a bachelor's degree

[cookderosa]

we all know the limits of using the mean / average. It isn't the whole picture. Still, unless you're very specific or specialized, you have to look at numbers in a general sense. Salary is one, but not the only factor of course. Buying a house requires SO MUCH MONEY in some places, like Danika said, you have to really be a high earner to do it.
I'll give you another thing to consider, work hours. If someone earns $50k and works 40 hours, that is an entirely different kind of job than someone who can make $50k working 20 hours - or even 70 hours. It's not just about the salary. In addition, is there upward mobility? As an example, my oldest son's first full-time job was at a warehouse where everyone makes $20-25 an hour - literally. But that's it, there is no "up" so after a few years, people leave because it's a hard job and there is nothing else to do. No promotion, no prospect of a better quality of life. So, it's a team of young men who can physically run their butts off and want money to buy a fast car and beer. It's not a career and it's not a skilled trade- so outside of that one company, it's nearly impossible to walk into a different warehouse and earn that kind of cash.

[sanantone]

we all know the limits of using the mean / average.  It isn't the whole picture.  Still, unless you're very specific or specialized, you have to look at numbers in a general sense.  Salary is one, but not the only factor of course.  Buying a house requires SO MUCH MONEY in some places, like Danika said, you have to really be a high earner to do it.
I'll give you another thing to consider, work hours.  If someone earns $50k and works 40 hours, that is an entirely different kind of job than someone who can make $50k working 20 hours - or even 70 hours. It's not just about the salary.  In addition, is there upward mobility?  As an example, my oldest son's first full-time job was at a warehouse where everyone makes $20-25 an hour - literally.  But that's it, there is no "up" so after a few years, people leave because it's a hard job and there is nothing else to do. No promotion, no prospect of a better quality of life.  So, it's a team of young men who can physically run their butts off and want money to buy a fast car and beer.  It's not a career and it's not a skilled trade- so outside of that one company, it's nearly impossible to walk into a different warehouse and earn that kind of cash.

I think plumbers make enough to have a middle class lifestyle in most places in the U.S., but they aren't upper middle class. There's usually a handful of companies dominating the local market, and the owners of those companies are the ones making six or seven figures. 

I think people need to look more at individual occupations than groups of related occupations. For the most part, plumbers and electricians make good money, but auto mechanics do not. It's also easier to be successfully self-employed as a plumber than as an auto mechanic because plumbers don't need to operate an expensive, standing shop. There's a lot of competition in the auto repair industry, and most of the small businesses will fail. 

In my last job, I learned that there are thousands of sole proprietors, partnerships, and small corporations that can't pay their taxes in Texas, alone. A lot of them also had no taxes to pay because they had no business, and they would ask us to end their sales and use tax permits.

[armstrongsubero]

I hope I'm not off topic, but I've been listening to Dave Ramsey a lot lately and listening to his calls and I think trades in the US make DAMN good money. I've heard one guy on the show said he makes like US 100k a year working as an electrician on a railroad and was living in his truck, which he traded for a lawn mower and a case of beer lol. He could pay off his house in 2 years if he keeps it up.

Trades pay good, I think it's just that people are really poor at managing money and love credits cards, car debt and buying stuff they dont need to impress people they don't care about. Drive a US 8000 car cash, forget the beer and get rid of the car payments.

Listening to his program and hearing people from all over the US calling in for advice, it seems people are just as he says "dumb with money", based on his program is sounds to me like the average American lives above their means and debt cripples them.

I wish I was in the US getting US 50K a year. If a man is a plumber or electrician getting 50k and has a wife getting 40k they can be millionaires. Heck if I had the opportunity to go to the US making 50k a year I can be a millionaire. It isnt as hard as you think, deliver pizzas, do youtube, sell socks America is the land of opportunity. Deliver pizzas at nights after work can earn you US $2000 a month, heck I wish I had the opportunity you guys have, just cant be lazy. If a guy is a plumber and delivers pizzas, walks dogs, cuts grass etc or something on the side, he can easily net 80k a year.

With a combined income of 100k you can buy a house cash, people have called his show and did it. Couples like 24 paying houses in cash by living below their means. If you make 100k a year and live off 50k in 4 years you can have a 200k house, cash.

Live frugal and invest, doesn't matter the job, as long as you manage your money properly you can get the wealth you want.

"Live like no one else, beans and rice, rice and beans so the later you can live and give like no one else" - Dave Ramsey

Just my $0.02. I'm applying his principles to my life right now and its working. Just imagine if you are in the big US of A.

[sanantone]

I hope I'm not off topic, but I've been listening to Dave Ramsey a lot lately and listening to his calls and I think trades in the US make DAMN good money. I've heard one guy on the show said he makes like US 100k a year working as an electrician on a railroad and was living in his truck, which he traded for a lawn mower and a case of beer lol. He could pay off his house in 2 years if he keeps it up.

Trades pay good, I think it's just that people are really poor at managing money and love credits cards, car debt and buying stuff they dont need to impress people they don't care about. Drive a US 8000 car cash, forget the beer and get rid of the car payments.

Listening to his program and hearing people from all over the US calling in for advice, it seems people are just as he says "dumb with money", based on his program is sounds to me like the average American lives above their means and debt cripples them.

I wish I was in the US getting US 50K a year. If a man is a plumber or electrician getting 50k and has a wife getting 40k they can be millionaires. Heck if I had the opportunity to go to the US making 50k a year I  can be a millionaire. It isnt as hard as you think, deliver pizzas, do youtube, sell socks America is the land of opportunity. Deliver pizzas at nights after work can earn you US $2000 a month, heck I wish I had the opportunity you guys have, just cant be lazy. If a guy is a plumber and delivers pizzas, walks dogs, cuts grass etc or something on the side, he can easily net 80k a year.

With a combined income of 100k you can buy a house cash, people have called his show and did it. Couples like 24 paying houses in cash by living below their means. If you make 100k a year and live off 50k in 4 years you can have a 200k house, cash.

Live frugal and invest, doesn't matter the job, as long as you manage your money properly you can get the wealth you want.

"Live like no one else, beans and rice, rice and beans so the later you can live and give like no one else" - Dave Ramsey

Just my $0.02. I'm applying his principles to my life right now and its working. Just imagine if you are in the big US of A.

People calling into a radio show wouldn't make a good sample. That's self-selection bias. When I listen to his show, a lot of people calling in have incomes that are higher than the U.S. median. There's a certain type of person who listens to the Dave Ramsey show. I know a lot of lower middle class and working class blue collar folks who would never listen to Dave Ramsey. 

I did read several articles on people who have become millionaires. You have your CEOs, entrepreneurs, and people who got lucky investing in a new company. The other group that became millionaires consisted of extreme savers. Some of them had side hobbies, but they didn't work themselves to death working multiple jobs. Most of their income came from their full-time jobs, and they made moderate incomes. They mainly saved up a 1+ million by being frugal for decades and conservatively investing. So, these people were millionaires when they were not too far away from retirement. Obviously, most of their money would be spent supporting themselves in retirement. A couple of million is no longer worth that much in the U.S. these days, especially once you cease working full-time. These saver millionaires just have the peace of mind knowing that they won't run out of money if they live to 100. But, I can say that, if these people had worked themselves to death, they would have died too early to enjoy their money. 

One thing people don't talk about is how loaded government employees can be in retirement, especially law enforcement retirement. At many agencies, you can retire after working 20 to 25 years. They'll pay 80% to 90% of your average salary for the last three years. A lot of people will work a bunch of overtime in their last years to boost their average. So, you're retired by your mid-50s and collecting a pension. You're young enough to start working a second job for 10 to 15 years. Of course, if you work in law enforcement past the age of 55, there's a very high chance that you will die before the age of 65. 

There are so many other things people don't take advantage of or don't know about. A former boss of mine had a doctorate in psychology. I'm sure she had a lot of debt because she didn't attend a school that waived tuition. Somehow, we got on the topic of debt, and I told her about the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program. She had never heard of it. All you have to do is work for a government or non-profit organization while making 120 payments under an income-based repayment program. After that, your loans are forgiven tax-free. She also didn't know that Texas would pay for up to $80k of her student loan debt after five years of working as a mental health provider.

[armstrongsubero]

@sanatone thats good insight! I still like his show though cause its inspiring. I and a few friends of mine not even americans are following his baby steps and it works! Being debt free is a POWERFUL feeling, but you gave a lot of insight.

I guess you are right thinking about it a lot of people calling are high earners. I guess out of 10 only like 4 or so make 40k or less who call.

Yeah these days a mil isnt as much, but its a lot more than nothing cause something like 78% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck which is astouding. I see that figure over and over, idk how reliable it is but another MSN article talked about americans dying witb debt so it cant be wrong. I can only look from the outside though.

Cops there have it nice, nowhere near what we get, they deserve it though. It isnt easy to leave home not knowinf if you'll return home. That deserves at least some dignity with retirement.

[sanantone]

Many years ago, I used to listen to the Clark Howard show before it went off air locally. I should check to see if he's on satellite radio. He always introduced interesting, money-saving tips. He also gave advice to callers.

[cardiacclep]

Articles like this only show a narrow slice of the real world. Most people in the trades do not want their family members to follow in their footprints because it is really physically work. My whole family is electricians and plumbers and the wear and tear on the body is a real thing. Busting concretes and hauling toilets around is ok in your 20s and 30s but there will be point to where you cannot do it physically. If you are not business savvy and become a manager/owner of a company you are one bad injury from zero income. Also, the six figure trades are because of immense overtime, meaning you are never home and long days. I know many excellent tradesmen that can be laid off because of seasonal/weather, economic slow downs etc. Just like the bachelor degree path has pitfalls, so does the trades. Like anything, lucking into the right circumstances really helps.

[clep3705]

She also didn't know that Texas would pay for up to $80k of her student loan debt after five years of working as a mental health provider.

That program wasn't well funded and is no longer accepting new applications. Texas has better laws than funding.

[cookderosa]

Articles like this only show a narrow slice of the real world. Most people in the trades do not want their family members to follow in their footprints because it is really physically work. My whole family is electricians and plumbers and the wear and tear on the body is a real thing. Busting concretes and hauling toilets around is ok in your 20s and 30s but there will be point to where you cannot do it physically. If you are not business savvy and become a manager/owner of a company you are one bad injury from zero income. Also, the six figure trades are because of immense overtime, meaning you are never home and long days. I know many excellent tradesmen that can be laid off because of seasonal/weather, economic slow downs etc. Just like the bachelor degree path has pitfalls, so does the trades. Like anything, lucking into the right circumstances really helps.

This is right, but the takeaway isn't to avoid the trades, it's to encourage the skilled to ALSO become businessmen and entrepreneurs.
At the end of the day, a plumber can run his own company, a history major....well, that takes a lot more creativity and resourcefulness. Now if neither has an entrepreneurial spirit and wants to only be an employee for someone else, that in itself is a limiting career proposition.
I strongly believe that the path to wealth requires owning your own business. They guy paying your paycheck will ALWAYS have more money than you - so be that guy.

I have 4 sons that all have or will have degrees but they will have or already have skills - still, my drive and push for them on a daily basis is working for themselves.

[mudball]

"One thing people don't talk about is how loaded government employees can be in retirement, especially law enforcement retirement. At many agencies, you can retire after working 20 to 25 years. They'll pay 80% to 90% of your average salary for the last three years. A lot of people will work a bunch of overtime in their last years to boost their average. So, you're retired by your mid-50s and collecting a pension. You're young enough to start working a second job for 10 to 15 years. Of course, if you work in law enforcement past the age of 55, there's a very high chance that you will die before the age of 65."

My husband is a cop in Ohio. He has been there 20 years and makes about $65,000 a year if he works a lot of overtime. I just went to his retirement calculator for his pension. If he retires now he will get about $19,000 a year. If he retires after 25 years, he will get about $38,000 a year and at 30 years, $42,000. Pensions here were cut drastically about 6 years ago for anyone with less than 15 years of service. He was at 14 years at the time. Don't be a cop in Ohio if your are planning to live off of your pension, and know that they can cut what they will give you at any time no matter how long you have been there.