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International student, complex study history, looking at TESU BA Psych - vaticidalprophet - 06-01-2023
Hi, everyone
New to the forum, excited to be here. Been doing a lot of research on my own.I'm an Australian citizen and resident, currently aged 24. I've been interested in the concept of a degree by examination for a long time, but never been entirely clear on how to actualize it until now. My educational history is pretty complicated, and translating it internationally even moreso. I don't have a conventional 'high school diploma' (the local terminology for this varies by state; I'm using American terminology for simplicity), and Australia lacks a simple GED equivalent or clear-cut 'homeschool diploma'*, but I have multiple forms of both ~equivalent qualifications and previous attempts at higher study, some fairly unusual:
- I have a Certificate III, which is the closest 'high school equivalent' certification that exists; they inhabit the same level of the Australian Qualifications Framework, the standardized national system for educational qualifications, and are treated as equal-level qualifications in demographic and sociological data (see example). Cert 3s are generally pass/fail (including mine), which does make it a little more complicated to compare to high school completion in grade level terms.
- I was until recently (i.e. weeks ago) working towards an Advanced Diploma, which is equivalent to an Associate's (not a common degree in the Australian system, though they're starting to pop up), but used as an end in itself rather than a means to transfer. I completed the equivalent of 12-15 or so credits, not a huge amount, probably overlapping with the next category, but it does demonstrate both some credits that may apply (especially if few from the next category do) and that I'm locally "eligible for" higher education in the same sense as someone with a conventional high school experience. This was also pass/fail.
- My longest-lasting and most complicated higher educational experience to explain is weird by Australian standards, let alone much else. From 2019-2021, I attended Monash College, a bridging program to Monash University (one of the country's most prestigious universities). Bridging programs are much like community colleges as a stepping stone to four-year institutions from a logistical point of view, but are all of 1. far rarer, 2. connected to individual institutions rather than being standalone (though you could apply to any university from them), and 3. targeted at international students with negligible domestic participation. I was the only domestic student in any of my classes, though I knew of maybe 1-2 more in the whole cohort, and I met multiple people who didn't know domestic students could attend MC. I didn't finish the program due to Covid disruptions, but I did more credits towards it, and got actual numerical grades (some exceptionally good). I'm extremely unclear on how many of these would transfer as college-equivalent. I'm also frankly not very clear on how to get my transcripts as an ex-student, so it's hard for me to pin down how many credits I have (I'll probably have to make a few phone calls). I also have some concerns about how the grades would translate to the US -- the two countries use very different grading scales. (90 in the US is pretty good, but not spectacular; 90 in a quantitative class in Australia is very impressive; 90 in a qualitative class in Australia means you were the best student in the cohort.)
I'm strongly leaning towards TESU as the best fit for my scenario:
- Has international student admissions, is fairly transparent about how they work, and doesn't have completely soul-crushing international tuition
- Easiest way to take TECEP tests, which are the only real direct-test-credit option available to me (there is one CLEP test site in Australia, on the opposite coast, with a distance equivalent to between NYC and Salt Lake City)
- Accepts CSM Learn (I'm mildly dyscalculic, and while there are forms of maths I'm more conversational in, it's been an issue for prior education)**
I'm specifically most interested in TESU's BA in Psychology. I might have some Monash College credits for it, considering all prior caveats. I'm mostly looking at Sophia, Coopersmith, and TECEP to get credits, though some individual classes (SOS-450 Ethics in the Social Sciences, specifically) seem hard to find a good way to handle -- the recommendation on the wiki is study.com, which seems somewhat cost-prohibitive. I'm also looking at TEL if I need more RA credits on top of prior study + TECEP + residency, and various other credit sources (Coursera, TEEX, etc) for individual electives I find interesting. I plan to do the 16-credit residency, with my current outline being cornerstone/capstone, e-Packs for Abnormal Psychology and Psychology of Personality, and full classes for Medical Terminology and Biomedical Ethics. The last one is the one I'm most hesitant about -- it gives the impression of a very involved/work-heavy class, and isn't 'directly related' to the major (which is to say it takes a slot more naturally filled by Ethics in the Social Sciences), but it's a passion of mine and something I want to study further.
I want to keep my graduate school options open, which is to say I want to have a good enough ratio of graded credits to pass/fail credits to get into grad school. This is something I've long worried about regarding degrees by examination, though my recent heavy research is mitigating that fear a little.
I'd really appreciate any help or guidance available. I know my situation is unusual, but I'm hoping at least for reassurance about my worst fears being irrational
I've been looking deeply into this and want the opportunity to think out loud/work through my plans with people who've been there and done that. I'm starting to form a real image of a study plan in my head, and I'm looking for the practical experience to actualize that theory.Thanks for any help, and I hope you have a great day.
*'Homeschooled during high school' is a reasonable simplification of the situation for our purposes -- it's more complicated than that at heart, but it's complicated in a way that isn't relevant to this post.
**My Monash College credits (which, again, I'm being equivocal about transferrability for) include an Introduction to Statistics. I'm certainly hoping that this will transfer given it's a core class for the BA Psych, but as I understand it I'd still need another maths credit for gen ed? Regardless of CSM necessity I'm hoping it transfers -- statistics is my best maths, but I did quite a bit better in that class than my usual for formal maths classes and don't fancy my chances of pulling another miracle.
RE: International student, complex study history, looking at TESU BA Psych - rachel83az - 06-01-2023
I'm a bit confused about why you think Study.com is cost-prohibitive? They're super cheap compared to traditional US university/college credits. I think they're even inexpensive compared to a lot of UK and Australian universities, too? They're also cheaper than Coopersmith. Coopersmith is $150 per course, but Study.com is $200/mo. for up to 2 exams per month. Additional exams are $70 each, up to 5 total in a billing month. If you are able to finish 3 classes every month (which is entirely reasonable), it works out to $90/class. That's less than half the price of TEL Learning's $200/class and slightly more than half the price of Coopersmith. Some students are able to regularly do 5 Study.com classes every month. I wouldn't count on being able to do that regularly, but it'd bring the cost down closer to $82/class.
Sophia.org classes are, of course, even cheaper than Study.com. Thankfully, you can fill out much of a TESU degree with Sophia credits. That helps keep the cost down.
Without being familiar with the Australian school system, a Certificate III sounds similar to an American GED. You'll need to get all of your certificates/diplomas and university/college credits evaluated by an American evaluation company to see where you stand. TESU might not even care about proof of "HS graduation" with everything else you've got. But I'm not 100% sure.
If your Monash College credits don't count for transfer, for whatever reason, you can take Statistics again from Sophia. Sophia is relatively easy and everything is open-book, so that should make it easier for someone with dyscalculia to complete. Many students here in similar situations have reported being grateful for both Sophia Stats and Algebra because those classes were otherwise impossible for them to complete at a college or university.
Because you want to continue on to grad school at some point, I would suggest doing some research into the universities that interest you. Some of them may require more significant math, either at the undergrad or grad level, and might not admit you with just Stats and CSM Learn. Look for degrees with admission requirements that are more reasonable to your needs. Correspond with them and ask them questions (grad schools are usually much more open to discussions than undergrad schools are) then you'll be better equipped to tailor your undergrad to the admission requirements. Some potential questions to ask might include:
1. Are ACE and/or NCCRS credits in a Bachelor's degree acceptable for admission into XYZ degree?
2. If yes to the above question, does this institution require a certain pass percentage for the undergrad ACE/NCCRS credits?
3. Do you count ACE/NCCRS scores when calculating GPA or only classes from another college or university where a grade was issued?
There are plenty of grad schools that are alt-credit friendly, but there are also plenty that are not. You need to figure out where you plan to go, if you want to tailor your prerequisites to admission. For your 16-credit term, it might be better for you to take classes that the grad school expects, rather than what you actually want.
RE: International student, complex study history, looking at TESU BA Psych - bjcheung77 - 06-01-2023
@vaticidalprophet, You have an amazing first post! It's very detailed, having said that, there are still some missing pieces of information from the template/last post addendum, you should fill us in with the info here: https://www.degreeforum.net/mybb/Thread-New-to-DegreeForum-How-this-Area-works
Several Aussie universities have 'study/teach out centers' in South East Asia, where these centers provide the first two years of education transferable to any of the Australian Universities. I have a few questions...
1) Did you only take a certificate course load from Monash College and not one of their diplomas?
2) You mentioned grad school. Do you have a specific grad school or program you're interested in?
3) Must it be a TESU BA Psych or can it be any Bachelors that can get you into the grad program?
rachel83az Wrote:Sophia.org classes are, of course, even cheaper than Study.com. Thankfully, you can fill out much of a TESU degree with Sophia credits. That helps keep the cost down.
Exactly, I would recommend you work on the Sophia.org courses that are going to be part of your TESU BA degree, up to 90 lower level credits total. But that is to get things started, you may want to get an evaluation completed first before you work on these, so you don't do duplicate work. Again, fill in the template/last post addendum where I linked you above.
RE: International student, complex study history, looking at TESU BA Psych - vaticidalprophet - 06-01-2023
Thank you both for your help! I'll try not to be too long-winded...
Rachel:
(06-01-2023, 09:06 AM)rachel83az Wrote: I'm a bit confused about why you think Study.com is cost-prohibitive?
I was concerned about Study.com mostly because of the combination of high sticker price with a subscription model. The worst-case scenario that played out in my head was something like "take a bunch of courses, turn out to need much longer with them than I thought, rack up high costs". It also seemed like a bad deal if I was taking very few classes, which was what I envisioned given there was only one class that needed it. Reviewing it I can definitely see how it can still be pretty cost-effective, especially if I take more classes in it than originally planned, but I'm still a little worried about that scenario. Coopersmith isn't amazing price-wise, but it doesn't provide the "if I take longer than a month to finish these I'm essentially paying massive interest" fear, and I did like how many of its electives were of specific interest to me. I definitely get what you're saying about Study.com, though, and it's definitely worthwhile for me to consider.
Quote:Because you want to continue on to grad school at some point, I would suggest doing some research into the universities that interest you. Some of them may require more significant math, either at the undergrad or grad level, and might not admit you with just Stats and CSM Learn. Look for degrees with admission requirements that are more reasonable to your needs. Correspond with them and ask them questions (grad schools are usually much more open to discussions than undergrad schools are) then you'll be better equipped to tailor your undergrad to the admission requirements.
Graduate admissions in Australia tend to be relatively simple -- I've looked into more than a few courses over the years, and at the Master's level they tend to be much more concerned with grades than with the nitty-gritty of someone's program. Exactly what you studied can matter a lot, but moreso for giving additional credit than for getting you in at all, even for very highly-ranked institutions. The main thing that I want to discuss with admissions in the future is what can count as an 'honours course' -- you tend to get more credit when your undergraduate degree is Honours, which roughly corresponds to 'an extra year of study and a bachelor thesis'. Because TESU's capstone has a lot in common with a thesis, that's definitely something I'm looking to explore the implications of, but the magnitude of the benefit depends a lot on the specific graduate program and might be more or less relevant depending exactly what I go with.
bjcheung:
(06-01-2023, 01:57 PM)bjcheung77 Wrote: @vaticidalprophet, You have an amazing first post! It's very detailed, having said that, there are still some missing pieces of information from the template/last post addendum, you should fill us in with the info here: https://www.degreeforum.net/mybb/Thread-New-to-DegreeForum-How-this-Area-works
I did look through that, but got the impression it was optional. Definitely worth noting, though! To try not to be too long-winded, and to rearrange the order a little for what's most relevant to me...
Timeline: This is my main priority right now. I am, to be a little 'young man without perspective on just how long a lifetime is' for a moment, not relishing that I'm still un-degreed in my mid-20s despite multiple attempts. I've always skewed intellectual and academic, but pursuing relatively basic undergrad studies over the course of several years really doesn't work well for me. I work in bursts and fits of energy; I can do things very fast indeed when no one is making me slow down. I have a "grasps the supposedly 'hard' parts of something before the supposedly 'easy' parts" cognitive style.
I'm looking to get my undergrad over with. One way or another, it's already taken me four years. I want to finish it before the end of this one (which, funnily enough, is about when I'd be graduating from Monash if everything went textbook). This is not a hard deadline -- if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen -- but it's something I consider perfectly possible. I certainly think I'd still pull it off in less than a year, if 'six or so months' fails. I think faster than that is in the realm of possibility, even, but I'm not going to assume it. Good transfer luck would help.
Commitments: Are not many, but are unconventional. I have a lot of time, traditionally understood. I work part-time and don't get as many hours as I want. I'm not working around a partner or kids. My days are pretty open. That said, I'm also working on a fairly complex creative project, and writing/seeking funding/seeking collaborators/etc takes up nontrivial chunks of time. Right now this isn't a big deal, though I could see it becoming a bigger one. In general, though, I'm pretty open to doing a lot. I do tend to burn out quickly (see 'bursts and fits' style), and am a little worried about things like "study for 10 hours a day" proposed in some threads I've read; those seem like they'd be recipes for crashing, for me.
Budget: Hoo boy. I don't have much money, but I also have very little (not zero
) debt from prior study, which makes me more flexible than someone with e.g. substantial loans. Given fragility of exchange rates, inflation, etc., I'm not comfortable setting hard numbers right now. Family support may be in the cards for aiding with the cheaper credit sources (e.g. some subscriptions or course providers). I "ha-ha-only-serious" wonder if any course providers take buy-now-pay-later financing. International student status and credit transfer games both invalidate traditional student loans, but I can envision gritting my teeth and getting a personal loan, under some circumstances. (I'd probably rather the Afterpay...)Additional relevant details: As noted -- as reiterated, even -- I work in a very "candle burning twice as bright" style naturally. This prioritizes tests, deprioritizes competency-based assessments. (But I can certainly write, when it's called for.)
Quote:Did you only take a certificate course load from Monash College and not one of their diplomas?
No, I took the diploma, the same "first two-ish years" practice. I looked back through the course layout on the website, tallied up what I'm confident I passed without needing to look at a transcript, and got '30-something' credits as a best case. This could drop precipitously if a large portion gets labelled as 'developmental' and ruled out, and some subset of it looks like it'd be either duplicative or not-worth-transferring-in, but that's the best case. Will see how things look when I have my transcript and get it evaluated.
Quote:You mentioned grad school. Do you have a specific grad school or program you're interested in?
I'm looking at multiple Master's-level graduate options at the moment, at both Monash and the University of Melbourne. I also don't want to rule out doctoral study in the future, including going overseas to do so, but it's not my current priority. A representative sample of 'interesting options' include the Master of Bioethics at Monash, the thesis-only MA at Unimelb (dependent on study areas available; this is one of the courses for which honours vs non-honours makes a big difference), and the Master of Public Policy at Monash. This is just a selection; other courses stand out to me too, including more explicitly psychology-related ones. In the European system (which Australia follows) doctoral degrees are generally done after a master's degree, rather than the North American system that more often sees them directly after undergrad, so considering doctoral options also includes looking at lower graduate qualifications first; this means, for instance, an interest in research psychology looks at psych master's qualifications too.
I'm also not exclusively looking at grad school. It's an option I find important to keep open and am seriously considering, but if after completing this degree I want to do anything but study for a while, that's just how it is
Most of my current desperation around 'getting something done now' is about the problem of rapidly approaching "no, seriously, extended adolescence has to end at some point" ages while still being very far from having a career path, any serious educational qualifications, anything I can really point to and say I've 'done', etc. Once the bachelor's degree barrier is crossed, future study is a lot more flexible.Quote:Must it be a TESU BA Psych or can it be any Bachelors that can get you into the grad program?
As noted, I'm not so much "studying for a particular grad program" as "embarking on a course of study for which it's important I can enter further study afterwards, with a few possible options, including not doing so at all". Psych is certainly the most appealing to me of the options. I have a deep interest in the social sciences in general and psychology in particular, and a lot of both my formal and informal study involves it.
Again, thanks so much to both of you for your help. It's definitely helping me think out loud and get checks/balances.
RE: International student, complex study history, looking at TESU BA Psych - vaticidalprophet - 06-08-2023
Update: I contacted Monash College for my transcripts and was informed I had a debt with them I needed to repay before they'd send them. Further inquiries revealed this debt was over $7k, which is not viable for me to pay as a prerequisite for credit transfer, so I'm starting from zero. This does have the frustrating consequence I'll need to handle all RA credit elsewhere, but the fact I was already planning on residency makes this a little logistically simpler. However, this does create further problems for proving my eligibility. What's the ideal way to demonstrate my prior study if I can't get transcripts for the largest chunk of it?
RE: International student, complex study history, looking at TESU BA Psych - davewill - 06-08-2023
(06-08-2023, 06:45 AM)vaticidalprophet Wrote: Update: I contacted Monash College for my transcripts and was informed I had a debt with them I needed to repay before they'd send them. ... However, this does create further problems for proving my eligibility. What's the ideal way to demonstrate my prior study if I can't get transcripts for the largest chunk of it?
Eligibility for what? TESU admission is universal, so you won't need it there. If we're talking about employers, you can still say you went there (since you did), and they may be happy with just your say so, or with an unofficial transcript if you have a copy. If the payback is there, you could always decide to pay the debt when the time comes, if you just have to have an official transcript.
If you don't think the debt is valid, you could try appealing or suing them.
You're lucky you don't owe a school here in the U.S. TESU (and others) often insist on all official transcripts before letting you graduate and you could find yourself stuck. The school in Australia is outside their view.
RE: International student, complex study history, looking at TESU BA Psych - vaticidalprophet - 06-08-2023
edit: nvm, figured it out
RE: International student, complex study history, looking at TESU BA Psych - bjcheung77 - 06-11-2023
vaticidalprophet Wrote:Update: I contacted Monash College for my transcripts and was informed I had a debt with them I needed to repay before they'd send them. Further inquiries revealed this debt was over $7k, which is not viable for me to pay as a prerequisite for credit transfer, so I'm starting from zero. This does have the frustrating consequence I'll need to handle all RA credit elsewhere, but the fact I was already planning on residency makes this a little logistically simpler. However, this does create further problems for proving my eligibility. What's the ideal way to demonstrate my prior study if I can't get transcripts for the largest chunk of it?
When you apply to institutions in the country (Australia), you may come across issues. You don't really need a BA Psych to get into a Masters in Psych or the ones you mentioned, you can try going for UMPI and a minor of your choice using alternative credits, or an Excelsior BSLA, this is to maximize your credits for transfer using alternative credit.