European International University

[PearsonOTHMQualifi7654]

Not being a Université doesn't mean it's not a University:

The notion that they are a not a university because they are a distance learning center is simply not true. They are a private university, registered as a Distance Learning Center, with no on-campus students. 

They are a distance learning center issuing private diplôme d’établissement under the French Distance Education Law

Just want to point out that it was never my contention that EIU is not a university because they are a distance learning center.

But all of what you wrote is an example of the spirit of what I discussed. The general American native English-speaking student already finds the American system confusing enough and it's a pretty straightforward system compared to many other countries. They're definitely not going to understand much of what we're discussing here, and will just find it all odd.

At this point, the issue is not about the legitimacy of the school, it's really about the perceived oddity of the system it's connected to. There is nothing EIU can do about that, and the French government has no real incentive to make it more understandable to people outside their country. But I also think no one will care about any of this regarding a degree holder from this system, and certainly not in the way we do here.

Hi there, the comment was not directed at you by the way, and I appreciate your writing and input very much. It may have come across that way because the posts that kicked off the more recent discussions earlier this year started with emphasis on the "University" aspect, but we now have more clarity on that part.

I think it’s been useful to explore and clarify how the French system works, but I’m not sure “rebuttal” is the right term here.
Earlier this year, the conversation shifted from cautionary to accusatory, and the response was simply factual clarification. That was a correction rather than a rebuttal. 

I guess what you mean is that the average US student or any student for that matter is mostly concerned with "is this accredited, will it be recognized?" and maybe some look for "Regional" and "DEAC".

However the US system, is arguably complex as well.

1. Regional Accrediation (which is no longer supposed to be called Regional)
   
2. National/Institutional Accrediation (which is no longer supposed to be called that either)
   
3. Programmatic Accrediation: AASCB, ACBSP, IACBE, ABET, ACEND, etc.
   
4. Specialty Accrediation (Such as the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS), etc.)
   
5. SARA accreditation recognition between the US Department of Education and recognized accredited schools across state lines
   
6. State-Licensed (licensed by the state to legally confer degrees, yet still considered "unaccredited")
   
7. Professionally accredited by associations that are not recognized by the US Department of Education or CHEA, still considered unaccredited.
   
8. Other (many know what these are and some are wise enough to avoid them; they rhyme with fake and mill because they do not have registration with the state to lawfully confer degrees)
   

France is a bit simpler:

1. LMD (Public School) or Grande École ("Big Schools"/ prestigious French Private Schools): Diplôme Nationale. Only Public Universities can be called Université
   
2. Diplome d'etablissement with or without RNCP listing
   
3. Diplôme Universitaire and Diplôme Interuniversitaire are diplomas that are a subset of Diplome d'etablissement that are issued by a Université (public university). 
   

Italy

State Recongized - MUR

1. Laurea (Bachelor's)
2. Laurea Magistrale (2 Year Master's)
3. Dottorato di Ricerca

Official but Professional Degrees and not Academic Degrees

4. Primo / 1 Livello
5. Secondo / 2 Livello

Spain looks to be the simplest?

1. Titulo Official -  Government recognized
2. Titulo Propio - University's own private award

UK

1. QAA-regulated universities, awarding degrees by Royal Charter or by powers granted by Act of Parliament
   
2. OfQual Regulated Diplomas that provide equivalency to University education, Levels 4 - 8 which can be also used to satisfy taught portions of degrees for advanced entry.
   
3. Colleges that teach prep courses to allow entry into University (in the UK, "College" is more like high school AP coursework) / or authorised teaching centres that teach/provide access to earning regulated diplomas.
   

As for EIU and the cluster of "Paris" based schools, they seem geared almost entirely for English-speaking distance learners from outside of France, so let's not be mistaken about that. 

Just as ENEB and IEAD, ISEB are geared for Spanish-speaking students outside of Spain where "Barcelona, and "Europeo" are intentional marketing signals, so is "Paris" is for the category of schools like EIU we are talking about.

From that category of "Paris Schools" (CASS European Institute of Advanced Studies, IBES, PAIU, Etc.), where I listed 6 of them here:
https://www.degreeforum.net/mybb/Thread-...ty?page=10

EIU has done the most on that list because it has ASIC Premier Institution Status (the highest form of ASIC UK accreditation), and ASCBP accrediation for 3 programs. Followed closely by CASS (ASIC UK, ACBSP for its DBA, and Qualiopi), as well as IBES (with BAC Accrediation and partnerships with UCAM and VERN). 

Although EIU chose not to renew its Qualiopi certification, that is for training program quality and has no bearing on degrees. As for its Ministry of Education registration with UAI number and registration with the Rectorat de Paris, those are simply minimal requirements to operate such an institution registered in Paris.

Even still, EIU is one of the most affordable ACBSP (US CHEA Recognized, not just listed) program providers.

Recently, it announced that the holders of the ABE Level 5 Diploma (UK OfQual Regulated Diplomas) can progress to the final year of the ACBSP BBA program, or the non-ACBSP BBA program. https://www.abeuk.com/what-next/progress...university

The main difference one can note is that the EIU Paris ACBSP programs require an oral defense of each final project turned in. (Imagine if you had to do a virtual oral defense for each ENEB paper)

This year in the summer, previous graduates will also be given an opportunty to complete additional coursework to earn the ACBSP-accredited versions of their diplomas. 

To put it simply, a diplôme d’établissement functions in a similar way to a título propio. Acceptance and recognition can vary.
You see comparable patterns in other systems as well, such as Italy’s Master di 1° livello, where recognition also varies.

Once you look at it that way, it’s not really unusual, just a different country's system with a similar concept. 

Diplôme d’établissement should really be included on the Titulo Propio wiki page along with the others listed there.

Also the section makes complete sense: "Romance Language Countries" 
https://degreeforum.miraheze.org/wiki/ENEB

"In countries that speak Romance Languages such as French, Italian and Spanish, ENEB is typically recognized as continuing education but not valid for state or national licensure, the same as within Spain itself. The reason is they have copied their educational systems from each other and contain the same distinctions between degree types in their own countries."

The parallel becomes clearer: Spain has título propio, France has diplôme d’établissement, and Italy has professional postgraduate qualifications like Master di 1° livello, all of which sit outside the main national degree framework, and recognition can vary.

[Sagan]

A university degree is a proxy. It tells a story about you to people who are not actually talking to you. What it says (or does not say) is important.

In most situations, a degree like this will be accepted simply because people don't look and people don't care. But as soon as you enter a situation where they do, what is going to happen? That's the important question.

Another thing to consider is that earning a degree tells that story about you for the rest of your life. (Unless you abandon it and no one knows about it..) Where you go to school, what you did while you were there, and what degree you earned all matter.

Sagan, by your reasoning, DEAC accredited degres are also in the same category. 

Just because a DEAC accredited instition doesn't have RA accreditation, it doesn't make it automatically bad. 
DEAC accredited institutions have had Department of Education approval since 1926; it also doesn't automatically mean the student is any less than someone else who attended an RA institution. There are more variables to consider.

Just because a degree is not earned at a French LMD institution, doesn't automatically make it bad.

Regardless, I respect your opinion on it, to make it clear.

This is a strawman argument. I didn't say any of those things, nor did I imply them. My opinions about DEAC are more nuanced than that, but it's immaterial since, again, I didn't say anything about DEAC or any other form of institutional recognition.

[PearsonOTHMQualifi7654]

A university degree is a proxy. It tells a story about you to people who are not actually talking to you. What it says (or does not say) is important.

In most situations, a degree like this will be accepted simply because people don't look and people don't care. But as soon as you enter a situation where they do, what is going to happen? That's the important question.

Another thing to consider is that earning a degree tells that story about you for the rest of your life. (Unless you abandon it and no one knows about it..) Where you go to school, what you did while you were there, and what degree you earned all matter.

Sagan, by your reasoning, DEAC accredited degres are also in the same category. 

Just because a DEAC accredited instition doesn't have RA accreditation, it doesn't make it automatically bad. 
DEAC accredited institutions have had Department of Education approval since 1926; it also doesn't automatically mean the student is any less than someone else who attended an RA institution. There are more variables to consider.

Just because a degree is not earned at a French LMD institution, doesn't automatically make it bad.

Regardless, I respect your opinion on it, to make it clear.

This is a strawman argument. I didn't say any of those things, nor did I imply them. My opinions about DEAC are more nuanced than that, but it's immaterial since, again, I didn't say anything about DEAC or any other form of institutional recognition.

I think this may just need a bit more context. I’ve read quite a few of your posts here, and it seems to me that you generally support affordable, officially recognized degrees, whether DEAC or non-U.S. but officially recognized programs in a given country.

At the same time, I’ve noticed you tend to be more skeptical of things outside that framework, such as títulos propios.

My point was simply that if we group non-official programs as subpar or not worthy of being a “proxy,” a similar argument could be made about DEAC institutions as well, since their acceptance can vary depending on the audience, even though they are fully legitimate and accredited. Personally, I’m actually a big fan of DEAC.

I respect your perspective, and I wasn’t trying to put words in your mouth, just drawing a comparison.

[eLearner]

@PearsonOTHMQualifi7654

However the US system, is arguably complex as well.

1. Regional Accrediation (which is no longer supposed to be called Regional)
   
2. National/Institutional Accrediation (which is no longer supposed to be called that either)
   
3. Programmatic Accrediation: AASCB, ACBSP, IACBE, ABET, ACEND, etc.
   
4. Specialty Accrediation (Such as the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS), etc.)
   
5. SARA accreditation recognition between the US Department of Education and recognized accredited schools across state lines
   
6. State-Licensed (licensed by the state to legally confer degrees, yet still considered "unaccredited")
   
7. Professionally accredited by associations that are not recognized by the US Department of Education or CHEA, still considered unaccredited.
   
8. Other (many know what these are and some are wise enough to avoid them; they rhyme with fake and mill because they do not have registration with the state to lawfully confer degrees)
   

1 & 2 were misunderstood by most Americans, but that's not due to complexity, just ignorance. With 3, programmatic accreditation is seen in many countries. After all, EIU itself has programmatic accreditation through ACBSP. 4 is just made up of what were once called national accreditors, but now all approved accreditors are just considered institutional accreditors which removes any confusion there may have been in the past. 5 is not something students ever have to worry about since the schools take care of that in the background, and if a school is not authorized to provide degrees in your state the school is obligated to make that known to you prior to enrollment.

For the rest, people in practically every country know to look for one major thing in the U.S.: is it (institutionally) accredited or not? People who go to an unaccredited program are usually doing so knowing fully well that the school isn't accredited.

France is a bit simpler:

1. LMD (Public School) or Grande École ("Big Schools"/ prestigious French Private Schools): Diplôme Nationale. Only Public Universities can be called Université
   
2. Diplome d'etablissement with or without RNCP listing
   
3. Diplôme Universitaire and Diplôme Interuniversitaire are diplomas that are a subset of Diplome d'etablissement that are issued by a Université (public university). 
   

You also have to add 4. VAE.

You may see it as simple because you understand it. But you have to consider how the average person from outside that system who doesn't understand it might view it, particularly with the terms being in French.

[PearsonOTHMQualifi7654]

@PearsonOTHMQualifi7654

However the US system, is arguably complex as well.

1. Regional Accrediation (which is no longer supposed to be called Regional)
   
2. National/Institutional Accrediation (which is no longer supposed to be called that either)
   
3. Programmatic Accrediation: AASCB, ACBSP, IACBE, ABET, ACEND, etc.
   
4. Specialty Accrediation (Such as the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS), etc.)
   
5. SARA accreditation recognition between the US Department of Education and recognized accredited schools across state lines
   
6. State-Licensed (licensed by the state to legally confer degrees, yet still considered "unaccredited")
   
7. Professionally accredited by associations that are not recognized by the US Department of Education or CHEA, still considered unaccredited.
   
8. Other (many know what these are and some are wise enough to avoid them; they rhyme with fake and mill because they do not have registration with the state to lawfully confer degrees)
   

1 & 2 were misunderstood by most Americans, but that's not due to complexity, just ignorance. With 3, programmatic accreditation is seen in many countries. After all, EIU itself has programmatic accreditation through ACBSP. 4 is just made up of what were once called national accreditors, but now all approved accreditors are just considered institutional accreditors which removes any confusion there may have been in the past. 5 is not something students ever have to worry about since the schools take care of that in the background, and if a school is not authorized to provide degrees in your state the school is obligated to make that known to you prior to enrollment.

For the rest, people in practically every country know to look for one major thing in the U.S.: is it (institutionally) accredited or not? People who go to an unaccredited program are usually doing so knowing fully well that the school isn't accredited.

France is a bit simpler:

1. LMD (Public School) or Grande École ("Big Schools"/ prestigious French Private Schools): Diplôme Nationale. Only Public Universities can be called Université
   
2. Diplome d'etablissement with or without RNCP listing
   
3. Diplôme Universitaire and Diplôme Interuniversitaire are diplomas that are a subset of Diplome d'etablissement that are issued by a Université (public university). 
   

You also have to add 4. VAE.

You may see it as simple because you understand it. But you have to consider how the average person from outside that system who doesn't understand it might view it, particularly with the terms being in French.

Nice to call that out. Adding 4. VAE means we should add 4. RPL to the UK and finally, to the US: Credit for Life Experience / Portfolio of Experiential Life Award - although this is quite minimal, the last time I checked, for the US this meant that 110 years of life experience  = 1/2 of 1 Credit, which makes that school fake by American standards? I am kidding and exaggerating here, but that's my impression.

[cacoleman1983]

Most places require an accredited degree and don't care which accreditation it is, as long as it can be verified, has enough graduates with it, and is legitimate. It's only the universities themselves that care most about accreditation with matriculation, but even they are becoming more flexible in hiring. The federal government here in the US is lessening the education requirements for many positions.

[Unlucky]

It's been quite fun, and the discussion was never about EIU for me. It was more about understanding and sharing what I have found about various education frameworks while staying factual.

I would be very interested to hear your thoughts once you read about Switzerland, Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland…

[Balchunas]

Under the French Education Code (Articles L444-1 to L444-11 and R444-1 to R444-28), private distance learning providers aren’t authorised to award state-recognised degrees. They can issue their own certificates or diplomas, but these aren’t equivalent to university degrees. they are just autonomous piece of paper, None of the universitites/coutries accept such certificates for further studies- yes there are always rare cases and past education certificates which makes difference and some universities override and admit students as they need moneys too.

The doctoral degree market is unquestionably where EIU Paris generate the most substantial revenue. There is a persistent and universal demand for the prefix "Dr." before one's name  particularly across markets in Asia and the UAE  and this demand has been systematically exploited.
Genuine VAE-based doctoral recognition through accredited French state universities is an exceptionally rare outcome, conferred upon perhaps three to four individuals per year per institution, following rigorous academic scrutiny. What this organisation in question EIU paris has done is commercialise that process entirely, stripping it of any academic rigour and converting it into a transactional certificate business available to virtually anyone willing to pay.

The financial scale of this operation is significant. If one conservatively estimates that between three to four thousand doctoral certificates have been issued by EIU Paris at approximately €10,000 per certificate, the revenue attributable to the doctoral programme alone would amount to no less than €30 million. This figure does not account for the organisation's extensive portfolio of other certificates, MBAs, and programme offerings — which would place the total revenue considerably higher.

What has effectively been created is a large-scale credential commercialisation racket one that has produced thousands of individuals across Asia and the UAE who now present themselves publicly as doctors on the basis of certificates that carry no state recognition, no genuine academic validation, and no standing in the French national qualifications framework. The reputational and public interest implications of this are considerable, particularly in professional and medical-adjacent contexts where the use of the title "Dr." carries significant weight and potential for public harm.

Many of these organisations operate as private companies (e.g. SAS), and the use of the word “university” isn’t strictly regulated in France as its in English, which is confusing to general public and public thinks its a university.
EIU -Paris is not a Private university - its a distance learning center. or a tuition center issuing own certificates and has characteristics of a diploma mill issuing certificates at a huge pace

For VAE, recognised qualifications are awarded by institutions within the official higher education system. It’s worth checking the legal framework on Légifrance and doing proper due diligence. EIu is not even allowed to offer VAE -all the certificates offered by them via vae are worthless and illegal


Those talking in favour about the university above are obviously trying to cover up with so much information in their favour as they are from this company

[Eleanor]

If one conservatively estimates that between three to four thousand doctoral certificates have been issued by EIU Paris....

What is the source or basis of this estimate?

[Charles Fout]

Further to that, they claim or mention they have RA equivalency which doesn't seem correct either.  Moreover, they list a partnership with an unaccredited California Metropolitan U, which also has the same .ac top level domain.  Too many red flags, I wouldn't even bother looking them up...

Just wow!

Why?

Caveat emptor.