Problems with Leadership Programs

[sanantone]

Criminal justice is not a vague concept. I said that leadership, in and of itself, is vague, not that it is based on vague theories. Criminal justice is a very real system that you can see with your own eyes; it's not a concept.

I said Criminal Justice, in and of itself, is vague.  I agree the criminal justice system is as visible as leadership development programs. 

It is clear you have a distaste for these programs.  I'm not fully convinced it's an intellectual distaste as opposed to an emotional one.  Perhaps you've been a part of programs that you found inadequate, or maybe you've done research on the effectiveness of the programs -- I'm not sure.  All I can say for sure is, I have found use from one of these programs.  Did it make me an awesome leader with no other input?  Of course not!  Does that make it a waste of time?  Not for me.

Are you comparing training programs to the criminal justice system? Leadership degree programs aren't about the study of leadership development programs. 

Criminal justice programs study the criminal justice system just like government programs study the government. I don't know what's vague about that. You might take some criminology courses, which is simply the study of criminal behavior and social deviancy. Breaking the law puts you into the criminal behavior category; it's pretty black and white. Criminal justice programs are not training programs. Unlike accounting, for example, they aren't designed to directly prepare you for any occupation or position.

By the way, I often recommend that people not study CJ simply for job opportunity purposes. Your objection to my opinion is simply emotional because you chose to study leadership. You don't gripe this much when I repeatedly tell people not to study CJ or homeland security.

I have no CJ degrees. The only reason why you bring it up is because I'm earning a PhD in CJ which actually leads to a job. You need a related doctorate in order to teach CJ or criminology, and there is a shortage of people with these degrees. I'm not getting a PhD because I believe it will make me a better leader or increase my job opportunities in a field that prefers other degrees.

[mednat]

Criminal justice is not a vague concept. I said that leadership, in and of itself, is vague, not that it is based on vague theories. Criminal justice is a very real system that you can see with your own eyes; it's not a concept.

I said Criminal Justice, in and of itself, is vague.  I agree the criminal justice system is as visible as leadership development programs. 

It is clear you have a distaste for these programs.  I'm not fully convinced it's an intellectual distaste as opposed to an emotional one.  Perhaps you've been a part of programs that you found inadequate, or maybe you've done research on the effectiveness of the programs -- I'm not sure.  All I can say for sure is, I have found use from one of these programs.  Did it make me an awesome leader with no other input?  Of course not!  Does that make it a waste of time?  Not for me.

Are you comparing training programs to the criminal justice system? Leadership degree programs aren't about the study of leadership development programs. 

Criminal justice programs study the criminal justice system just like government programs study the government. I don't know what's vague about that. You might take some criminology courses, which is simply the study of criminal behavior and social deviancy. Breaking the law puts you into the criminal behavior category; it's pretty black and white. Criminal justice programs are not training programs. Unlike accounting, for example, they aren't designed to directly prepare you for any occupation or position.

By the way, I often recommend that people not study CJ simply for job opportunity purposes. Your objection to my opinion is simply emotional because you chose to study leadership. You don't gripe this much when I repeatedly tell people not to study CJ or homeland security.

I have no CJ degrees. The only reason why you bring it up is because I'm earning a PhD in CJ which actually leads to a job. You need a related doctorate in order to teach CJ or criminology, and there is a shortage of people with these degrees. I'm not getting a PhD because I believe it will make me a better leader or increase my job opportunities in a field that prefers other degrees.

I was referencing a system that used theories from leadership studies in a way that is similar to how I believe the criminal justice system uses theories from criminal justice studies.  

Is that why I selected it?  I'm not sure where you received that insight, but it's just not true.  I selected it because 1.) It's a topic I know very little about that appears broad at first glance (similar to your selection).  2.) It was the first thing that popped into my head (maybe I subconsciously saw it on your signature, although it wasn't premeditated). 

This is the same response I'd give to anyone who made sweeping generalizations about a field where they did not have experience (as I did with criminal justice).  Leadership is not my primary field, and I selected this program to get a +18 in another field and the program's format fit my needs.   I was pleasantly surprised by the usefulness of the leadership aspect of the program, but it really isn't and wasn't the reason I selected it.

I'm happy to exit the thread, as I have no desire to fuel the flames. I just thought it may be valuable to hear a first hand experience about an actual program like the one you're discussing instead of making generalizations about some theoretical program.  I would be interested in hearing your experience studying leadership that made you form your beliefs?

[sanantone]

Organizations use theories from organizational psychology. There are no criminal justice theories. The system occasionally applies theories from law, sociology, psychology, and economics, but it's mostly controlled by politics.

I've taken organizational behavior and leadership courses. Unfortunately, I will have to take another one soon because it's a degree requirement. I expect to learn the same stuff all over again. Of course, I've already talked about my experience with leadership studies in other threads. This thread was created to present professional opinions.