Josh Duggar

[LaterBloomer]

Sanatone, Between my experience in criminal court and CPS, you would NOT believe how many promiscuous 5-year olds are out there! They ASK for it!

A story I love is about a 5-year old girl whose teenaged male babysitter asked her to touch his genitalia. She did. (Visualize her poking her index finger at it like it's a dead bird.) He then threatened to kill her if she told anyone. When the social worker asked her what she did, she said, "I told my mommy." Gotta love her.

[Beacon]

What makes me mad is that people are defending this and acting like it's no big deal because he "repented". Experience has taught me that people like him don't stop without serious intervention, they just get sneakier and more devious. I truly hope that what his parents did was enough to discourage him from ever doing it again but I don't consider it likely, unfortunately.

Obviously what he did was wrong, but the point is that God has forgiven Josh. God is the one who sets the standards of right and wrong in the first place, and He's the One with the authority to decide who is forgiven and who isn't. What right do any of us puny humans have to continue condemning someone God has forgiven? Who do we think we are? As Francis Chan says, when we disagree, we shouldn't assume it's His reasoning that needs correction. God has forgiven Josh and he has repented and asked forgiveness from the people he sinned against, and they have all moved on. It's none of our business now. Yes, sin has consequences, and all involved will likely be affected for the rest of their lives, but why do we need to remind them of that? They're already aware enough. We don't need to continue embarrassing Josh and his family in front of the whole world.

[AngelaP]

OMG, are you freakin' kidding me? If they didn't want to be judged, they shouldn't put their entire life on TV in front of millions. God may set moral standards and he decided not to follow them. There are also legal standards/laws, which he also broke and he should be punished for breaking them. Repenting for breaking a law isn't good enough. His actions should not have been brushed aside and kept secret. You cannot hide behind christianity and think everything is OK. He will be judged by God, but he will also be judged here on Earth whether he likes it or not.

[LaterBloomer]

Beacon, I respect your belief system. However, as I mentioned before, we do not live in a country where a Christian version of sharia rules. We are a country of laws that are independent of religion. Our laws forbid the molestation of children. It doesn't matter if the offender apologizes, and if the victim forgives. It is wonderful for them that they, PERSONALLY, are able to deal with it. It is good that they can live their lives with the belief that God will welcome them into his loving arms. That does not excuse those that break the law from facing society's condemnation (through the court system) for their actions.

[rebel100]

I've held back posting on this as I'm slightly conflicted. Don't get me wrong, I condemn his actions. My issue is this, he was only 12-14 when this is said to have happened. Doesn't in any way make it right or OK...but he was a "kid" himself. Having worked on many cases involving child protective services I'm not sure the outcome would have been a lot different had they been contacted.

Christians, like many groups within our society may very correctly be weary of secular solutions to their problems. I have little girls and my reaction to this event is visceral, I would want to lay my hands on this kid had those been my girls. We have an assumption that some "authority" should have intervened. But in my experience this wouldn't necessarily have produced the result most seem to imagine. In my experience a perpetrator like Josh Dugger would be placed under some authority, had to take classes, had to perhaps (though doubtful considering his age) register as a sex offender, experienced mandated counseling...then been right back in the home anyway. Knowing this, and in consideration of the families beliefs, I can't say they didn't make a reasonable decision.

You could argue, though I choose not to, that the result has been pretty good. Remember even secular authorities practice "catch and release". If I had 19 kids in my care, and believed I had addressed the issue, and I had sought the counsel of others I trusted including a local law enforcement authority (i know..he turned out to be a real winner too, but that wasn't known at the time)...well I don't know...I can see how the decision was made and I have no confidence that handling it otherwise would have produced a better result. In fact if you look at kids entering the penal system you might argue that the system is broken or at best produces mediocre results.

I wouldn't assume that calling the police would produce his removal from the home. And if this had somehow gone to trial we probably wouldn't be discussing it today as the results would have almost certainly been sealed and possible even expunged. This is really a tough situation with no great outcome. I feel for the victims and the family.

Now with all that said, touch my kid and I will hunt you down like the animal you surely are.

[AngelaP]

I respect your opinion rebel, but I don't buy into the "but he was a kid himself". There is right and wrong and at that age you know the difference. Would you say that about a 12-14 year old murderer? Highly doubt it. We will never know what would have happened, but things were definitely not handled appropriately according to legal standards. You also must question why the legal documents of this investigation were recently destroyed when they are usually kept forever.

[rebel100]

I respect your opinion rebel, but I don't buy into the "but he was a kid himself". There is right and wrong and at that age you know the difference. Would you say that about a 12-14 year old murderer? Highly doubt it. We will never know what would have happened, but things were definitely not handled appropriately according to legal standards. You also must question why the legal documents of this investigation were recently destroyed when they are usually kept forever.

I haven't heard of any destroyed documents, not following all that closely. You lose me a little when you elevate unwanted inappropriate fondling to murder. Wrong? ABSOLUTELY! And it cannot be undone...but it wasn't murder. If we play the what if game then what if this was in any way consensual...still wouldn't be right but how would that change the dynamic? I'm no fan of the "kid himself" defense either, but he was and that changes how the "legitimate authorities" would have treated this. My argument is that end of the day the outcome of his presence in the house probably wouldn't have deviated much from what I understand occurred. Further, while we may wish for faith in the judicial system, I believe that faith (if blind) would be as misplaced as blind faith in a non secular solution.

I'm not sure what the detractors are hoping for. There is no solution where this kid would be taken outside and shot to death for touching his sisters. The likelihood of permanent removal from the home is also very unlikely. Maybe I'm unclear on what folks are looking for here. What could they have done that would have insured a better outcome?

[sanantone]

Obviously what he did was wrong, but the point is that God has forgiven Josh. God is the one who sets the standards of right and wrong in the first place, and He's the One with the authority to decide who is forgiven and who isn't. What right do any of us puny humans have to continue condemning someone God has forgiven? Who do we think we are? As Francis Chan says, when we disagree, we shouldn't assume it's His reasoning that needs correction. God has forgiven Josh and he has repented and asked forgiveness from the people he sinned against, and they have all moved on. It's none of our business now. Yes, sin has consequences, and all involved will likely be affected for the rest of their lives, but why do we need to remind them of that? They're already aware enough. We don't need to continue embarrassing Josh and his family in front of the whole world.

God wants us to follow the law. If any of those people were mandated reporters, then they broke the law by keeping quiet. It's not like these aren't just laws. If Jesus expects us to pay our taxes to the government, then it should be expected that people follow molestation and reporting laws.

I've held back posting on this as I'm slightly conflicted. Don't get me wrong, I condemn his actions. My issue is this, he was only 12-14 when this is said to have happened. Doesn't in any way make it right or OK...but he was a "kid" himself. Having worked on many cases involving child protective services I'm not sure the outcome would have been a lot different had they been contacted.

Christians, like many groups within our society may very correctly be weary of secular solutions to their problems. I have little girls and my reaction to this event is visceral, I would want to lay my hands on this kid had those been my girls. We have an assumption that some "authority" should have intervened. But in my experience this wouldn't necessarily have produced the result most seem to imagine. In my experience a perpetrator like Josh Dugger would be placed under some authority, had to take classes, had to perhaps (though doubtful considering his age) register as a sex offender, experienced mandated counseling...then been right back in the home anyway. Knowing this, and in consideration of the families beliefs, I can't say they didn't make a reasonable decision.

You could argue, though I choose not to, that the result has been pretty good. Remember even secular authorities practice "catch and release". If I had 19 kids in my care, and believed I had addressed the issue, and I had sought the counsel of others I trusted including a local law enforcement authority (i know..he turned out to be a real winner too, but that wasn't known at the time)...well I don't know...I can see how the decision was made and I have no confidence that handling it otherwise would have produced a better result. In fact if you look at kids entering the penal system you might argue that the system is broken or at best produces mediocre results.

I wouldn't assume that calling the police would produce his removal from the home. And if this had somehow gone to trial we probably wouldn't be discussing it today as the results would have almost certainly been sealed and possible even expunged. This is really a tough situation with no great outcome. I feel for the victims and the family.

Now with all that said, touch my kid and I will hunt you down like the animal you surely are.

There is something seriously wrong for a 14 year old boy who repeatedly fondles 5-11 year old girls, especially his own sisters, when they're awake and sleeping. This is abnormal behavior, and we don't know if Josh engaged in this behavior because he was molested himself. But, since this family and their church never took the problem seriously, they may never know if he has behavioral issues due to being molested or if his victims are suffering from PTSD. I just pray that his own children are safe. If anything happens to his children, then his parents, church, and wife will carry just as much blame as him. His wife knew about this before they got engaged. CPS doesn't always provide the best oversight, but at least an impartial third party would have been checking in periodically. The trooper/family friend they talked to turned out to be a consumer of child pornography. I don't know if he would have handled this differently if he weren't a sexual deviant. There is just so much wrong with this case.

[rebel100]

God wants us to follow the law. If any of those people were mandated reporters, then they broke the law by keeping quiet. It's not like these aren't just laws. If Jesus expects us to pay our taxes to the government, then it should be expected that people follow molestation and reporting laws.



There is something seriously wrong for a 14 year old boy who repeatedly fondles 5-11 year old girls, especially his own sisters, when they're awake and sleeping. This is abnormal behavior, and we don't know if Josh engaged in this behavior because he was molested himself. But, since this family and their church never took the problem seriously, they may never know if he has behavioral issues due to being molested or if his victims are suffering from PTSD. I just pray that his own children are safe. If anything happens to his children, then his parents, church, and wife will carry just as much blame as him. His wife knew about this before they got engaged. CPS doesn't always provide the best oversight, but at least an impartial third party would have been checking in periodically. The trooper/family friend they talked to turned out to be a consumer of child pornography. I don't know if he would have handled this differently if he weren't a sexual deviant. There is just so much wrong with this case.

No argument here...I don't disagree. Maybe I don't share the outrage because I just see so much wrong everywhere. The "authorities" were involved in Trayvon, Ferguson, and Baltimore but the outcome was anything but assured.

It's a horrific situation.

I'll add that the wife marrying the pervert...and with her parents blessing is a huge issue. I don't understand this at all. Of course Charles Manson has admirers, people are crazy.

When my girls were growing up we decided as parents not to let them go to sleepovers. When I worked for the police dept. I just saw to much. You can't trust anyone. We even had a detective in the youth crimes section that later served time for stealing his sons underage girlfriend and having relations with her...guy was a cop! We have also shied away from organized religion to a great degree. Perpetrators know where to hunt for victims, churches are fantastic hunting grounds. As I recall john Wayne Gacey moonlighted as a clown to lure children. I guess this knowledge is my default...I don't trust others to manage for me.

You make a great point though, unbiased oversight is perhaps the one thing missing. If I wished to defend the elder Dugger I would point out that he went to the elders of his church and the lawman...but I really don't desire to defend any of it. I'm just conflicted about the appropriateness of the response.

I used to come home from 24 hour shifts on the ambulance and my youngest and I would lay on the couch while this show played in the background...one episode made me really think this kid was creepy. he was getting married and said something to the effect of "every wife wants her husband to sing to them on their wedding day" just struck me odd as hell. And the way he said it...creepy kid for sure.

[LaterBloomer]

Rebel100, In some ways I agree with you because government intervention doesn't always achieve the hoped-for goals. Kids of that age, and I don't hold myself innocent, do some stupid things. Especially when it comes to the sexual arena. Government intervention could do more harm than good. It's the disparity in ages, and the fact that it happened more than a few times that raises a red flag for me in this case. It's not two six-year olds playing doctor, or two young teens wanting "just to see."

I cannot tell you how many cases I've read in CPS where mother marries, shacks ups with, etc. a molester. (She doesn't know of his proclivities, or thinks he's changed.) He then proceeds to molest her kids. It's then discovered that she was molested as a child. Her response? "It happened to me, and I'm okay." No, lady. You aren't okay. Had your molestation issues been properly addressed, the likelihood that YOUR children would have been molested, in my mind, would have been reduced considerably. You would have recognized the signs of a molester. Rather than letting him be part of your family, you would have gone after him with a dull, rusty knife.

I won't question the family's faith. What I do question is their (or anyone else's) apparent belief that they are above the law. We are none of us above the law.