What courses would you like to see on Sophia/SDC/etc?

[Jonathan Whatley]

It’s healthy to have both enthusiasm and skepticism in a business like nontraditional higher ed.

[ss20ts]

Why more legal and medical courses?

They're very interesting and the knowledge applies to two big pieces of modern life. Here are the health/medical courses I'd like to see:

First Aid/CPR

First Aid/CPR Lab (a lab for first aid would be awesome!)

Radiology

Immunology

Histology

Principles of Genetics

Principles of Genetics Lab

Pharmacology

Psychopharmacology

Pathology

Psychopathology

Pathophysiology

Biochemistry

Biochemistry Lab

Organic Chemistry I

Organic Chemistry I Lab

Organic Chemistry II

Organic Chemistry II Lab

Physics I

Physics I Lab

Physics II

Physics II Lab

-

Quantitative Reasoning

Cultural Anthropology

What would these transfer to? No serious programs would accept these as prerequisites. It's a waste of their time.

Radiology? What would this class entail? You can't seriously think you'd learn anything meaningful from this without a significant background in medicine. Even rad techs really cant diagnose what they are seeing aside from pattern recognition.. It also requires extensive background clinical knowledge and a patient story to piece things together..hence why radiologists have to go to med school and do an intern year.

Histology, Immunology...Pharmacology are all the same. Literally almost every class you listed would be a waste of their time and not transfer to anything other than a generic science credit for places like SNHU or UMPI.

They require significant background and concurrent knowledge bases to be useful.

Its like trying to join a college baseball team without ever playing in high school...

I have taken doctoral level classes in many of these subjects by the way...the fact that they would be on Sophia is sort of unserious.

They create these classes for a PURPOSE and if no schools recognize them, there is zero point. Just for funsies doesnt cut it.

With regard to relevance, we have to look at this a bit deeper. A lot if not all of the courses on that list are courses one would take in medical school, but they are also offered outside of medical school as single courses in the United States at a number of schools. The same can be said for nursing school with regard to the courses places like Sophia and Straighterline already offer. 

The rigor between a sophia offering and a medical school is equivalent is lightyears apart... let's get real. Go sit in on a med school class and get back to me. Take Step 1 and get back to me.

There are plenty of books and youtube videos someone could look into if they want a basic introduction, no need for an ACE credit class that will go nowhere and cost thousands to create. Its not even worth CME....

---

First Aid/CPR

First Aid/CPR Lab (a lab for first aid would be awesome!)

What good is First Aid without physically taking the course? Unless you're physically doing the procedures how are you truly learning how to do it?

Straighterline First Aid/CPR has an assignment where the student records a video in which they demonstrate a procedure, and it additionally embeds a requirement that the student earn a recognized CPR certification from a third party.

I teach BLS/ACLS, this is honestly ridiculous. If it's not from the AHA, it's useless. There is a reason why skill checkoffs are almost ALWAYS in person.

I repeated a few classes on Sophia that I took many years ago and was shocked by how little content the courses had. Their classes aren't 3 credits worth compared to classes at a college. I mean I took College Algebra on Sophia and at a community college where I had far more coursework. 15 weeks worth of actual work. The Human Biology class is a complete joke for a bio class.

[wow]

On the other hand, Sophia's A&P are pretty challenging.

[Duneranger]

On the other hand, Sophia's A&P are pretty challenging

For a layperson, sure. For serious credit towards a pre-req, no it's not adequate. (I taught A&P at the college level and facilitated a human cadaver anatomy lab)

---

Alright, @Duneranger, here we go...

Believe it or not, these courses often transfer to many schools. The very existence of these programs depends on it.

They really don't, its a handful of schools and when compared to a student with real in person classes, guess who is going to win?

Thousands of programs have accepted these credits for many years now.

Source. Very few medical oriented programs accept ACE credits from Sophia...so no. Most require at LEAST CC or online source like Portage or UNE

Learning something new is never a waste of time.

Depends, generally I would agree but if its truly about learning a library card could suffice. 

If were the case, then a person going into radiology at any school wouldn't learn anything meaningful since at that point they wouldn't have a significant background in medicine. Radiology courses have been offered online for quite some time now. People are learning from them.

Do you even know what radiology school is? Are you talking about actual radiology? Rad tech? MRI/CT/US/ECHO techs? None of these classes would suffice for these programs. Learning for what and how? To be a Dr Google at the next GP visit? The purpose of Sophia is to provide ACE credits for colleges,  a "Radiology" class isn't going to fit into any of these heavily specillized allied health fields

I don't think anyone goes into what are normally undergraduate courses expecting to come out with the knowledge of a Medical Doctor. The idea of these courses is to at least gain some basic knowledge of these things (which will put them far ahead of the majority of humans, let's face it), not to be able to diagnose conditions and start performing surgeries...

Soooo really no credit purpose then...because it doesnt offer much for a layperson or student clinician in these fields. Again, no one is stopping someone from using the library or google. What is the incentive for Sophia if these classes transfer as nothin other than a 100 level general science course.

That's kind of the point. Almost all of these courses are for general undergraduate credit. Thousands more programs besides SNHU and UMPI have accepted them.

These are all upper level science courses if done right (and require substantial Gen Bio and Micro knowledge), Sophia has plenty of general science course already which meet that 100 levle requirement. What is the incentive for more?

I disagree that the courses are not useful on their own. Have you ever taken one of these courses online before? If not, you might be surprised by the level of depth many of them have. These courses are usually written by medical doctors and doctoral-level educators in the healthcare field. A person is sure to encounter new knowledge in them.

I have taken some of these courses (when I had some time left on my subscription) and have taught them at the college level, no they don't. I dont really think you have the authority to make this as a declarative statement. I have written articles meant for the laypublic, it doesn't matter than a MD gave their input or edited sections.

I don't see that sort at all. And a lot depends on the student. A person gets out of it what they put into it.

The purpose of Sophia is to provide useable college credits, libraries are free.

And many schools recognize them.

No, most schools do not recognize classes like A&P as replacements (nor would they recognize the vast majority of classes you suggested) for in-person prereqs, that isnt true. You are conflating ALL of Sophia which is not the purpose of my post. That's disingenuous.

If that were the case, the entire system of non-required continuing education would've crumbled generations ago.

What is the purpose of Sophia again?

I haven't compared rigor between a course on Sophia/Straighterline/Study.Com/etc. to medical school. I'm simply saying that those same courses with those same titles are offered outside of medical school, that is a fact. I think everyone is aware that the courses you take outside of medical school won't have the same depth and rigor as the ones taken inside medical school, that's the reason why anything taken outside could only be considered a prereq at best. 

Same titles means literally nothing. That's the problem, its deceptive. They don't even qualify as pre-reqs (and they shouldn't).

Besides, health literacy in the general public is dangerously low. The events early in this decade proved that. The more people who are exposed to these things, the better. Encountering new knowledge in and of itself is always useful. Everyone is not interested in becoming a medical doctor. However, people might take these courses and become interested in furthering their education after that to become a nurse, medical doctor, nutritionist and so on. Happens all the time.

Sure,  new knowledge is great but what's the purpose of Sophia again?

The courses already exist and have already gone somewhere for countless students. I don't understand what your argument against it is when they already exist. Literally every course I listed is already available somewhere. Some at Straighterline, some at Study.Com, some from Harvard Medical School online (which can be worth CMEs), all of them at various colleges and universities in the United States and across the globe.

You are conflating again, not all credit sources are the same . Sophia is a FAR cry from places like UNE. Most online science classes are still not accepted by most schools,  and those that do accpet them almost always require them to be RA source not ACE suggestions.

Also, I wouldn't agree that watching a YouTube video (while useful) is as useful as taking an actual course and a student having skin in the game to succeed in it.

There is no skin in the game on Sophia, let's be real. Almost 0 stress, no proctoring. Almost no cheat controls. Also, I have found better medical information sources on YT than any of the Sophia science classes so far. There are quality channels like Ninja Nerd who produce better content than Sophia by a mile.

Then you overlooked the part where they require students to get a real-world certification in order to get credit for the course. This means one would go through an entire course online and acquire new knowledge they didn't have before, demonstrate their knowledge in a video, then get hands-on training in-person and get certified. It encourages more people to be first-responders which is immensely useful for society. This is actually a great concept, it's also not new. This model has been done in a number of other courses, and there are entire EMT programs that have followed a similar format for years

If you looked at the syllabus, you'd notice that it is Red Cross-affiliated not AHA. That makes it essentially useless for healthcare folks. For people doing it for funsies? Sure, go ahead....or just take the real course....

You aren't going to sway me on this, its my job and has been for 15+ years.

Given this board's purpose, there is an unhealthy bias to greenlight literally everything that bypasses the traditional route.  For many gen eds I think Sophia serves a purpose, for these sorts of subjects (especially many that act as cut courses for schools like A&P)....absolutely not.

[wow]

On the other hand, Sophia's A&P are pretty challenging

For a layperson, sure. For serious credit towards a pre-req, no it's not adequate. (I taught A&P at the college level and facilitated a human cadaver anatomy lab)

---

(1) I am a layperson. However, I've also taken A&P that qualifies as a prereq, so I think I have some actual perspective on this unlike anyone who hasn't taken the course. Which, by the way ...
(2) Have you taken Sophia's A&P? If not, your opinion isn't worth much, even if you've got a PhD in the subject.

[Mint Berry Crunch]

On the other hand, Sophia's A&P are pretty challenging

For a layperson, sure. For serious credit towards a pre-req, no it's not adequate. (I taught A&P at the college level and facilitated a human cadaver anatomy lab)

---

(1) I am a layperson. However, I've also taken A&P that qualifies as a prereq, so I think I have some actual perspective on this unlike anyone who hasn't taken the course. Which, by the way ...
(2) Have you taken Sophia's A&P? If not, your opinion isn't worth much, even if you've got a PhD in the subject.

Like Jonathan said: a healthy dosage of both enthusiasm and skepticism. I have done the A&P via Sophia and I thought I took away a great deal of information from it and I did find it challenging. The same applied for when I took Pre-calc and Calculus. Isn't the goal of alternative sources to higher education to provide a bridge between affordability, knowledge, and college-level rigor? Sure, there's some differences between in-person and online modalities, but you can still take away some good knowledge. It may not be 100% like in-person, but then again, do we ever takeaway 100%? I do have respect for a lot of what Duneranger says across many other threads and I find it insightful. I would say that, yes, there are some colleges that wouldn't accept healthcare courses via Sophia, but then again, some colleges straight up don't take any courses from Sophia (I have bumped into this time-to-time). However, a main aspect of what we discuss about in this forum (which I know everyone here knows) is about leveraging alternative credits. We already have healthcare management via Sophia and the A&P courses and labs, so that already indicates that there is a level of interest and business to be have in offering healthcare-related courses. Whether or not some colleges accept them is there prerogative, but I'm sure other colleges out there will take them and students pursuing degree paths in that nature will use those credits and find a college elsewhere that will take them. I didn't have to do anything in person via WGU for their healthcare courses and I was able to do it via online, so the market exists for such courses to be provided by alt credit sources. If its about the rigor of the courses, that is for agencies like Sophia to develop and consider, and for ACE to give the thumbs up on it, not the customer/student.

[Duneranger]

On the other hand, Sophia's A&P are pretty challenging

For a layperson, sure. For serious credit towards a pre-req, no it's not adequate. (I taught A&P at the college level and facilitated a human cadaver anatomy lab)

---

(1) I am a layperson. However, I've also taken A&P that qualifies as a prereq, so I think I have some actual perspective on this unlike anyone who hasn't taken the course. Which, by the way ...
(2) Have you taken Sophia's A&P? If not, your opinion isn't worth much, even if you've got a PhD in the subject.

I have taken it (last year), it's not adequate. Next slide.

[Mint Berry Crunch]

On the other hand, Sophia's A&P are pretty challenging

For a layperson, sure. For serious credit towards a pre-req, no it's not adequate. (I taught A&P at the college level and facilitated a human cadaver anatomy lab)

---

(1) I am a layperson. However, I've also taken A&P that qualifies as a prereq, so I think I have some actual perspective on this unlike anyone who hasn't taken the course. Which, by the way ...
(2) Have you taken Sophia's A&P? If not, your opinion isn't worth much, even if you've got a PhD in the subject.

I have taken it (last year), it's not adequate. Next slide.

I'm curious to hear about what you didn't like about Sophia's version of it. What didn't they cover or what should they improve on in the course to bring it up to par?

[wow]

On the other hand, Sophia's A&P are pretty challenging

For a layperson, sure. For serious credit towards a pre-req, no it's not adequate. (I taught A&P at the college level and facilitated a human cadaver anatomy lab)

---

(1) I am a layperson. However, I've also taken A&P that qualifies as a prereq, so I think I have some actual perspective on this unlike anyone who hasn't taken the course. Which, by the way ...
(2) Have you taken Sophia's A&P? If not, your opinion isn't worth much, even if you've got a PhD in the subject.

I have taken it (last year), it's not adequate. Next slide.

So have I. Next slide.

[eLearner]

-For a layperson, sure. For serious credit towards a pre-req, no it's not adequate. (I taught A&P at the college level and facilitated a human cadaver anatomy lab)

We have to keep in mind that most people are layperson's. Then consider that a person on the road to a career in healthcare and taking an A&P course be it at Sophia, at the local college, or in medical school is still a layperson at that point. So, we should expect it to be difficult at that juncture. There is a building process. Nothing wrong with a person being at the beginning of it and taking an A&P course. It wouldn't be fair to dismiss a person because they haven't reached university professorship.

-They really don't, its a handful of schools and when compared to a student with real in person classes...

They truly do. Thousands of schools are much more than a mere handful:

https://www.straighterline.com/colleges

-guess who is going to win?

This isn't a competition though, not unless someone is trying to get into nursing school or medical school or the like, but that wouldn't describe the majority of students using this program.

This is more about general learning in the way a person feels is the best method for them. Personally, I've done both in-person and online education and have degrees from both methods. My grades have been the same and very good with both, but I prefer learning online. It allows me flexibility, and allows me the time to absorb everything at the pace that best suits me. I also absorb way more information this way. I've known people who simply cannot learn online and have to be in a classroom, everyone is not the same, and I totally respect that.

-Source.

"Accepted by 3,000 Colleges. We’ve helped students successfully transfer their StraighterLine credits to over 3,000 colleges and universities beyond our partner network."

https://www.straighterline.com/colleges

-Very few medical oriented programs accept ACE credits from Sophia...

Although we're talking about more than just Sophia in this context, what you're saying there is true, but almost none of the students taking these courses are trying to get into medical programs. Remember, most students are taking these courses to meet the general education requirements of undergraduate degree programs.

-Depends, generally I would agree but if its truly about learning a library card could suffice. 

I used to take that same stance often, and I still do for some things. But after all of these years banging around (lol) and graduating from education programs, I've come to realize that there really is a difference between going to a library and grabbing some books for free, versus paying a fee to enroll in a course and having some skin in the game.

Plus, paid courses have a structure and a direction, and even built-in accountability + someone watching your progress, grading your work, and giving feedback. All of that is really what we pay for which goes beyond just grabbing and reading some books.

-Do you even know what radiology school is?

Is that even a serious question? I sure hope not. Remember, you don't actually know my background or it's depth. I don't brag or flaunt it like some others might. But your way of putting that reminds me of another poster who used to write like that. At some point he disappeared. I wonder if you're... well, never mind...

-Are you talking about actual radiology? Rad tech? MRI/CT/US/ECHO techs? None of these classes would suffice for these programs. 

I'm talking about exactly what I've already stated.

Pretty much every single subject has an introductory course. You're jumping between understanding that and then bringing up broader scopes or higher levels.

-Learning for what and how?

For knowledge. For preparation for higher levels of learning. To brush up on prior learning (I fit this example exactly), and other reasons.

-The purpose of Sophia is to provide ACE credits for colleges...

Right.

-a "Radiology" class isn't going to fit into any of these heavily specillized allied health fields

You're showing the point I made when I said "You're jumping between understanding... and then bringing up broader scopes or higher levels." We're talking about gen ed requirements for general undergraduate degree programs. It would (and does) fit that level.

-Soooo really no credit purpose then...because it doesnt offer much for a layperson or student clinician in these fields.

We're in total disagreement on that.

-Again, no one is stopping someone from using the library or google.

It's not the same. I spoke on that a bit earlier.

-What is the incentive for Sophia if these classes transfer as nothin other than a 100 level general science course.

You just answered your own question. That's precisely how Sophia/Straighterline/Study.com and so on make money.

-These are all upper level science courses if done right (and require substantial Gen Bio and Micro knowledge)

Level is a suggestion, but ultimately it's up to the receiving institution to determine if they fit as upper or lower. People have found the results on that are mixed.

-Sophia has plenty of general science course already which meet that 100 levle requirement. What is the incentive for more?

That's the same question that could've been asked of Straighterline 15 years ago, but they kept adding more. Why? Because their market research showed that there was a demand for them. To allude to what I said about this on a different page, as consumers, we can only ask. In the end, it's up to the institutions to research and determine if a course is viable for their business model. No harm is done by voicing an interest in seeing certain courses, since that is, after all, the point of the thread.

-I have taken some of these courses (when I had some time left on my subscription) and have taught them at the college level, no they don't. I dont really think you have the authority to make this as a declarative statement. I have written articles meant for the laypublic, it doesn't matter than a MD gave their input or edited sections.

Well, we disagree again. I'm confident that if a person were to use most or all of the materials given within the courses (videos, texts, challenges, quizzes, exams, flashcards, kits, tutors, labs) that they would certainly learn a substantial and useful amount, particularly if that person did not have prior knowledge of the subject. Do most of the students go through all of those materials? Maybe not, but that goes back to the point I made before. You get what you put into it. And again I point out that you don't know my background so what you think about my "authority" on this is entirely not relevant to the discussion. The real issue here is that you present in this way: 

"I know it all, you all know nothing, I'm smarter than you, and that's that."

People who are collectively more qualified and with far more experience in education than anyone here have already made a determination and put their stamp on it to count for college credit, so we're really debating a closed case. 

Maybe you just know more than most in your field about these things, and if that's somehow the case, that's great, but I can't confirm that. I can confirm that the subject matter experts behind these courses, and the course evaluating organizations who have their own subject matter experts to evaluate these courses have deemed them suitable for college credit. I'm going to go with what is known over what is not.

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-The purpose of Sophia is to provide useable college credits, libraries are free.

I addressed this earlier.

-No, most schools do not recognize classes like A&P as replacements (nor would they recognize the vast majority of classes you suggested) for in-person prereqs, that isnt true. You are conflating ALL of Sophia which is not the purpose of my post. That's disingenuous.

I'm definitely not doing anything "disingenuously." That's ridiculous. And you're making your own conflation between what these courses are, and in-person prereqs. Many schools absolutely do recognize them for transfer, a few for prereqs, most for general education in various degree majors. If that were not the case, these courses wouldn't have been made available for as long as they have been at these types of programs. These didn't just pop up over night.

Further, the critical point you're missing is that schools accept courses based on circumstance. If I need science prereqs for, say, a degree in Business Administration, a school is more likely to accept these for that degree program. But if down the road I decide to come back and try to get into nursing school or medical school or some other health field, that same school is likely to tell me that my science courses will not apply to those programs. That is a standard scenario that I think most here understand.

-What is the purpose of Sophia again?

For people to learn at the college level, more efficiently, more affordably, and transfer the credits.

-Same titles means literally nothing.

That's not the point that was made...

-That's the problem, its deceptive.

I disagree.

-They don't even qualify as pre-reqs (and they shouldn't).

Oh, but they have. You keep saying they don't, when they already have (you actually acknowledged that earlier). That's an odd.

-Sure,  new knowledge is great but what's the purpose of Sophia again?

See my previous answer to that same question.

-You are conflating again, not all credit sources are the same.

I'm not conflating anything there, but you definitely are. I've simply stated the fact that these courses have been made available online at various programs. You're conflating what I said with the idea that "all credit sources are the same." That's not what I said at all, nor did what I say imply it.

-Sophia is a FAR cry from places like UNE.

That's great to hear. We should expect an institutionally accredited university teaching upper division courses and charging nearly $1500 per course to be better than an institutionally unaccredited school charging as low as $79/month for as many courses as you can take.

Having said that, here is a take from someone who took a course in UNE's program:

https://www.reddit.com/r/UNE_Prehealth/c...appointing

Wow. Not good.

-Most online science classes are still not accepted by most schools,  and those that do accpet them almost always require them to be RA source not ACE suggestions.

I'm not disagreeing with that.

-There is no skin in the game on Sophia, let's be real.

Disagree. Paying for a course and having to pass is an undeniable example of skin in the game. Of course, it's not the same as having to pass a USMLE, lol, so one can disagree with the level of it, but it doesn't change the fact that paying and needing to pass changes the dynamic.

-Almost 0 stress

Depends on the student.

-no proctoring.

Most online programs don't have proctors.

-Almost no cheat controls.

That's online learning. But some studies have shown that while a significant number of people cheat, most people still don't. Cheaters cheat. They'll find a way to do it offline and they'll do it online no matter what controls are put in place.

-Also, I have found better medical information sources on YT than any of the Sophia science classes so far.

YouTube is great. As a platform, it can draw from a level of sources that no university on earth can pull off, so I wouldn't think it fair to make that a knock on Sophia. Sophia is a tiny operation compared to that and most other schools.

-There are quality channels like Ninja Nerd who produce better content than Sophia by a mile.

I'll have to check that out.

-If you looked at the syllabus, you'd notice that it is Red Cross-affiliated not AHA. That makes it essentially useless for healthcare folks. For people doing it for funsies? Sure, go ahead....or just take the real course....

I have looked and that's quite a statement, because literally every hospital in my area accepts Red Cross training. Heck, they promote it. Moreover, if you check Indeed, you will see that at this very moment more than 40,000 jobs list it as acceptable.

I'm not here to debate the quality of Red Cross vs AHA and have no desire to. But it just stands to reason by sheer numbers alone that not everyone shares your position on this.

Besides all of that, to reiterate, a person must complete a separate hands-on program in order to get credit for the course. Knowing that, nothing would stop a person from getting it from an AHA program since one is not required to get it through the Red Cross.

-You aren't going to sway me on this, its my job and has been for 15+ years.

I have no interest in swaying you on anything. This is just a discussion about online education of which I will always defend.

-Given this board's purpose, there is an unhealthy bias to greenlight literally everything that bypasses the traditional route.

Let's say that's 100% true. You seem to have a bias against things that bypass traditional education, but you participate on a forum that is literally devoted to it.

-For many gen eds I think Sophia serves a purpose, for these sorts of subjects (especially many that act as cut courses for schools like A&P)....absolutely not.

Regardless, in the end, each school will decide what they will or won't take. So no matter what is said here, the schools get the final say.