State schools vs. other options

[PrettyFlyforaChiGuy]

I have lived in NYS for 45 years. Yup, sure did apply complete my FAFSA. Couldn't get my student loans at UMPI without it. 

I personally did not make over $125K. 

I attended college full time - well beyond full time actually

I graduated with a 4.00 so yeah I passed every course.

All disabilities aren't included. 

Then why wouldn't you qualify then? There has to be information that you are not mentioning or you are just lying. All of disabilities under ADA qualify. Either way, nothing you say adds up. I really think you are lying or not mentioning all of the information. 

This isn't an XBox Live lobby; people on this forum aren't really prone to personal attacks.

I'm a college counselor who has taken both the well-trodden route and the unpaved online route, and I can try to straddle the line here since I've experienced the benefits of both. This is just a personal reflection with no statistical weight to it, but I definitely feel that my undergrad was more academically rigorous, while my online CBE M.S. was far more practical and professionally oriented. With that said, I can also attest that undergraduate financial aid doesn't reach all students equally, and for many students it's almost a necessity to take out tens of thousands of dollars in loans, even if they do qualify for other aid. I graduated from my undergrad 1.5 years early, received the full Pell grant, and even earned nearly $100K in external and institutional scholarships, yet still left with ~$20K in loan debt. I chalked it up to "that's just the way it is for college students" at the time, but I and other users on this forum are more focused on college access in all its many forms, especially when loan debt is so crushing to many people.

You are very right to consider ROI, and I'd also advise students to look closely at that kind of metric. However, being a fly on the wall on this forum has taught me that there are many other legitimate paths toward higher education than I'd ever considered. State schools (which shouldn't be taken for granted as the best default route) can vary in quality and access from state-to-state. Such are the vagaries of federalized education. Online programs from alternative universities--especially competency-based options--can open up a lot of possibilities for people.

I feel that when I first veered off my well-trodden route and entered this vast, expansive field that lacked any clear orientation, I also had a similar healthy skepticism and resistance to some of the routes that other people were carving. Much of the higher education sphere tries to correlate cost with quality, and there is a presumption of inferiority that just isn't always true. You will find predatory practices (UoPhoenix) and less-than-optimal practices (like UoPeople's peer assessment model) in online higher ed, but it may be beneficial for new users to at least start with the assumption that people on this forum work to bring awareness of legitimate, accredited paths, even as they pave them themselves.

[MDela3]

[quote pid='356588' dateline='1643506155']

This isn't an XBox Live lobby; people on this forum aren't really prone to personal attacks.

I'm a college counselor who has taken both the well-trodden route and the unpaved online route, and I can try to straddle the line here since I've experienced the benefits of both. This is just a personal reflection with no statistical weight to it, but I definitely feel that my undergrad was more academically rigorous, while my online CBE M.S. was far more practical and professionally oriented. 
[/quote]



That is often the case. My experiences at FLCC, CUNY SPS and now within this online MBA program was practical and professionally oriented but this MBA program is quite rigorous academically. I don't mind it though. 

With that said, I can also attest that undergraduate financial aid doesn't reach all students equally, and for many students it's almost a necessity to take out tens of thousands of dollars in loans, even if they do qualify for other aid. I graduated from my undergrad 1.5 years early, received the full Pell grant, and even earned nearly $100K in external and institutional scholarships, yet still left with ~$20K in loan debt. I chalked it up to "that's just the way it is for college students" at the time, but I and other users on this forum are more focused on college access in all its many forms, especially when loan debt is so crushing to many people.

Yes, I can understand that as well not everyone qualifies. But, you went to a private university, Tulane. It is clear how you ate away at your scholarships, pell grants and still managed to have 20k in debt. This should be a lesson to any future students in proper degree planning. 

You are very right to consider ROI, and I'd also advise students to look closely at that kind of metric. However, being a fly on the wall on this forum has taught me that there are many other legitimate paths toward higher education than I'd ever considered. State schools (which shouldn't be taken for granted as the best default route) can vary in quality and access from state-to-state. Such are the vagaries of federalized education. Online programs from alternative universities--especially competency-based options--can open up a lot of possibilities for people.

I agree there are many legitimate paths towards obtain a degree. My only gripe with competency-based options such as WGU is the predatory marketing, the lack of resources for students and the low standard they set for what is "competency."  If WGU raised the bar a bit by hiring real academic professionals for proctoring/mentorship, creating a better "competency" based courses, provided quality career services and student support, it would be a real game changer and would be more widely embraced within HR circles. Unfortunately, I don't think WGU cares about improving these things when they making hand over fist off of their poor students. This is not to say, WGU graduates will not have possibilities open to them. But, the opportunities will be limited because of all things I mentioned. I often hear the "WGU does not do hand holding." I even heard this from those who tried to recruit me. It seems to me, it is propaganda that absolves WGU from actually investing in their students' success. Why shouldn't a college have a robust career services office with pipeline programs, internships, fellowships and other partnerships with employers for their students? Whether or not, one is looking for a job or not, these career services offices are often the greatest resources to possibilities. 

I feel that when I first veered off my well-trodden route and entered this vast, expansive field that lacked any clear orientation, I also had a similar healthy skepticism and resistance to some of the routes that other people were carving. Much of the higher education sphere tries to correlate cost with quality, and there is a presumption of inferiority that just isn't always true. You will find predatory practices (UoPhoenix) and less-than-optimal practices (like UoPeople's peer assessment model) in online higher ed, but it may be beneficial for new users to at least start with the assumption that people on this forum work to bring awareness of legitimate, accredited paths, even as they pave them themselves.

the higher education world, correlates quality based on data. Graduation rates, retention rates, starting salaries for it's graduates, etc... that is why this information is important and public. Although, the gainful employment rules can be improved to alleviate a lot of the issues, such as ensuring student debts are actually affordable relative to students' actual incomes, the DOE has certain rules in place to have some sort of governance & compliance in higher education. 

I am all for unique educational paths. To each their own.

[LevelUP]

You clearly have poor reading comprehension skills.

jsd has multiple degrees, which require reading & comprehension skills.

"I am not sure what state you reside in but I work look into the online degree programs at your local public colleges."  

work look or would look? Clearly, you have poor proofreading skills.

But, it seems like the MODs on this board are not open to anything that challenges their biases.

The MODs are why there are multiple suggestions for different college degree paths. Unfortunately, not every college provides a clear path to which alt credits are accepted to their programs, so there are a limited number of suggested colleges here. With the vast number of colleges and degree options, it would be impossible to plan for every possible degree path. 

Poster who describes herself as Perpetual Headache comes and leaves a simpleton comment while failing to think for herself. Independent thinkers laugh at the sheep minded simpleton.

Who do you think you are that you can talk to everyone like this?

Am not being nice or am I just making sense?

#1 You are not being nice.

You are antisocial, combative, and condescending.

#2 You aren't making much sense.

Your one size fits all approach to college will not help people. You also fail to realize that the online offerings of these small state schools may be vastly inferior to the live in-person classes.

Yes, I do believe one of the poster in this thread here is lying, ss20ts. How can someone from NYS claim that they did a full time degree with no failing grades, graduated with a 4.0 GPA and claim they did not "qualify" any financial assistance or scholarships? He/she claimed he/she only qualified for loans? I call BS.

ss20ts is not lying.

ss20ts graduated from college with a 4.0.

To use your own words, you clearly have poor reading comprehension skills.

[MDela3]

You clearly have poor reading comprehension skills.

jsd has multiple degrees, which require reading & comprehension skills.

"I am not sure what state you reside in but I work look into the online degree programs at your local public colleges."  

work look or would look? Clearly, you have poor proofreading skills.

But, it seems like the MODs on this board are not open to anything that challenges their biases.

The MODs are why there are multiple suggestions for different college degree paths. Unfortunately, not every college provides a clear path to which alt credits are accepted to their programs, so there are a limited number of suggested colleges here. With the vast number of colleges and degree options, it would be impossible to plan for every possible degree path. 

Poster who describes herself as Perpetual Headache comes and leaves a simpleton comment while failing to think for herself. Independent thinkers laugh at the sheep minded simpleton.

Who do you think you are that you can talk to everyone like this?

Am not being nice or am I just making sense?

#1 You are not being nice.

You are antisocial, combative, and condescending.

#2 You aren't making much sense.

Your one size fits all approach to college will not help people. You also fail to realize that the online offerings of these small state schools may be vastly inferior to the live in-person classes.

Yes, I do believe one of the poster in this thread here is lying, ss20ts. How can someone from NYS claim that they did a full time degree with no failing grades, graduated with a 4.0 GPA and claim they did not "qualify" any financial assistance or scholarships? He/she claimed he/she only qualified for loans? I call BS.

ss20ts is not lying.

ss20ts graduated from college with a 4.0.

To use your own words, you clearly have poor reading comprehension skills.

If you have anything interesting or of actual value to add to the conversation such as PrettyFlyforaChiGuy did, I will respond accordingly. Until then, ignored.

[ROYISAGIRL]

Check this out: https://sps.cuny.edu/admission...uate-ad...fer-credit

As a transfer institution that requires all students to enter with 24 or more credits, we strive to help you to transfer as much credit as possible. We know you have worked hard both inside and outside of the classroom to earn your education. That is why all bachelor’s degree candidates are eligible to transfer up to 105 academic credits from previous educational institutions. In order to earn a degree at the CUNY School of Professional Studies (CUNY SPS), students must successfully complete at least 15 academic credits at CUNY SPS while matriculated.


So, I actually did click on the link to see what degree options were provided and the courses needed. I don't think it fits the criteria for being added to the "Big 3". Yes, you can transfer up to 105 credits, however if you really look at the degrees and the courses needed it would be difficult to test out of (something most students on this forum want) most of them. If it works for someone great, but how it's being brought to forum isn't exactly the most positive way.

[MDela3]

Check this out: https://sps.cuny.edu/admission...uate-ad...fer-credit

As a transfer institution that requires all students to enter with 24 or more credits, we strive to help you to transfer as much credit as possible. We know you have worked hard both inside and outside of the classroom to earn your education. That is why all bachelor’s degree candidates are eligible to transfer up to 105 academic credits from previous educational institutions. In order to earn a degree at the CUNY School of Professional Studies (CUNY SPS), students must successfully complete at least 15 academic credits at CUNY SPS while matriculated.


So, I actually did click on the link to see what degree options were provided and the courses needed.  I don't think it fits the criteria for being added to the "Big 3". Yes, you can transfer up to 105 credits, however if you really look at the degrees and the courses needed it would be difficult to test out of (something most students on this forum want) most of them.  If it works for someone great, but how it's being brought to forum isn't exactly the most positive way.

What makes you think it would be difficult to test of most of them dependent on the degree selection? CUNY SPS takes all kinds of testing out options. They take all kinds of certification, career training and work experience that convert to credits that knock out classes. Look at the links below.

https://sps.cuny.edu/academics/credit-pr...e-learning
https://sps.cuny.edu/academics/credit-pr...xamination
https://sps.cuny.edu/academics/credit-prior-learning
https://sps.cuny.edu/academic-partners

As alumni of CUNY SPS, I can attest that I tested out courses. I was actually encouraged by my former advisor to test out of a spanish course through a CLEP exam since I took it in H.S. many years ago. I took IT certifications that tested me out of a handful of classes. I even took the Google IT cert on Coursera to test out a few courses. They started offering Micro-cred courses for free that come with a $300 stipend that convert to credit too! This is only open to CUNY students though. 

https://www.cuny.edu/jobs-ceo-council/
https://www.coursera.org/professional-ce...it-support

The only one I regret not getting is that Project Management one from Saylor. It could have knocked out the project management course.

[ROYISAGIRL]

I looked at the 18 online degrees that were provided. From what I've learned from reading post that people on this board don't generally go for nursing type degrees, so I excluded those from my "most" leaving 10 degrees. Of those 10 maybe 5 could be tested out of by looking at the courses needed and comparing those to courses alternative credit providers have. Those five being Psychology, Liberal Studies, business, Information Systems, and Sociology (those last two aren't even strong maybes). Again I'm basing this on courses the degrees require and what alternative credits we typically use here. For example Psychology degrees alot of people use Coopersmith courses which are NCCRS credits, but nowhere on the website does it say they accept that. I'm fully ok to be proven wrong and shown that the degrees could be mostly tested out of with an equivalency report. But as of right now there isn't anything.

[rachel83az]

Check this out: https://sps.cuny.edu/admission...uate-ad...fer-credit

As a transfer institution that requires all students to enter with 24 or more credits, we strive to help you to transfer as much credit as possible. We know you have worked hard both inside and outside of the classroom to earn your education. That is why all bachelor’s degree candidates are eligible to transfer up to 105 academic credits from previous educational institutions. In order to earn a degree at the CUNY School of Professional Studies (CUNY SPS), students must successfully complete at least 15 academic credits at CUNY SPS while matriculated.


So, I actually did click on the link to see what degree options were provided and the courses needed.  I don't think it fits the criteria for being added to the "Big 3". Yes, you can transfer up to 105 credits, however if you really look at the degrees and the courses needed it would be difficult to test out of (something most students on this forum want) most of them.  If it works for someone great, but how it's being brought to forum isn't exactly the most positive way.

What makes you think it would be difficult to test of most of them dependent on the degree selection? CUNY SPS takes all kinds of testing out options. They take all kinds of certification, career training and work experience that convert to credits that knock out classes. Look at the links below.

https://sps.cuny.edu/academics/credit-pr...e-learning
https://sps.cuny.edu/academics/credit-pr...xamination
https://sps.cuny.edu/academics/credit-prior-learning
https://sps.cuny.edu/academic-partners

As alumni of CUNY SPS, I can attest that I tested out courses. I was actually encouraged by my former advisor to test out of a spanish course through a CLEP exam since I took it in H.S. many years ago. I took IT certifications that tested me out of a handful of classes. I even took the Google IT cert on Coursera to test out a few courses. They started offering Micro-cred courses for free that come with a $300 stipend that convert to credit too! This is only open to CUNY students though. 

https://www.cuny.edu/jobs-ceo-council/
https://www.coursera.org/professional-ce...it-support

The only one I regret not getting is that Project Management one from Saylor. It could have knocked out the project management course.

Okay, let's take a look at these links. I believe most (if not all) of them were linked to in the previous CUNY degree thread that I linked to earlier in this thread. So, this isn't exactly new info. 

1. https://sps.cuny.edu/academics/credit-prior-learning/credit-non-collegiate-learning - Nursing/health and technology. So, most of these are going to be useless for most students here (most of whom tend to request business or lib studies). Good resource for students who want a degree where these apply, though.
   
   
2. https://sps.cuny.edu/academics/credit-prior-learning/credit-examination - As already stated, the ONLY ACE credit that is listed here is Saylor. Though, they do accept DSSTs, which is good. Either they weren't accepting at the time of the prior thread or it was impossible to access DSSTs at the time of the posting of the prior thread. 
   • Cambridge certificate whatsit: I don't think this is something available to most/all students. IIRC, you have to actually take the exam(s) in the UK.
     
   • AP exams: only available to American HS students; if you didn't take AP in school, you're out of luck here. Most people who come to this forum don't have AP. Some do, though, which is great!
     
   • BYU & DLPT language exams: less than a quarter of Americans speak a second language, so it's good that this credit is offered but it's going to be useless for the majority. 
     
   • CLEP exams: Students who come here often don't have easy access to a testing center. You can test online, but there are serious privacy and security concerns with the online proctor that they've chosen to use. For students who can access a testing center, great. For those who can't, it sucks.
     
   • DSST: Similar to the CLEP exams, except there isn't even the option of online testing. It can be extremely difficult right now to find an accessible and open testing center. Great for students who have access. Most, right now, do not.
     
   • UExcels: Notoriously difficult, depending on the subject, but we do recommend them often here. Which reminds me that it's about time to go check to see if they've added any more exams to their online testing. If not, this has the same issues as CLEP and DSST exams as far as being able to access the exams themselves.
     
   • IB: I don't even know how you get this, except that it's somewhat akin to AP. Either you have access or you're out of luck. I've never seen anyone with IB credits come to this forum. 
     
   • Saylor: Oh, Saylor. Their exams are only $5 now (down from $25), so that's nice. But they don't have a great reputation around here. The courses can be poorly put together and the exam wording often doesn't make sense. If you only need a couple of courses from Saylor, that's fine. But I'm not sure that most of those here who have gone through Saylor exams would eagerly accept having to take 10 or 20 of them.
     
3. https://sps.cuny.edu/academics/credit-prior-learning - This mostly links to other links you posted, so I'm not sure why you used this instead of https://sps.cuny.edu/academics/undergrad...evaluation Now, PLA is an option. But it's one that I don't think is applicable to most students. Students who come here mostly don't have relevant experience that they can use for their degrees. Some do, though, and this sometimes allows access to degrees that other students can't access due to lack of valid applicable courses. We seldom recommend PLA, though, because it can be significantly more expensive and time-consuming than just taking the dang course and getting it over with. 
   
   
4. https://sps.cuny.edu/academic-partners - I'm not sure who these are or what you have to do to access these courses. If you are in NYS, maybe these are great ways to get easy free credit. Maybe they're a PITA and a hassle to deal with. I'm not in a position to say one way or another. But they are only applicable to an Information Systems degree. We don't really get people seeking an IS degree here, though some do choose to get one from UMPI. UMPI is generally more affordable and more accessible, too.
   

So, yes, most students are not going to be able to test out of most CUNY degrees. Some students will be able to test out of some CUNY degrees, we are not disputing that. But most students who visit this forum will not.

---

As for WGU, I can understand why people go for it. If a person live in an area that lacks employment opportunities, lacks college options or community or state college material is too difficult than I understand why people go to WGU. But, the ROI with WGU is very poor. I understand you will be upset by this. However, I have done tremendous research on WGU and it really lacks in many areas, IMO. My main reason for not going there is because the material has a lot errors and is outdated, according to my friends who went there say it just a high school re-education program with some career training modules and sometimes the modules have errors. Also, they have don't have ample career resources and opportunities for their students and WGU is frowned upon by some employers. It just wasn't for me. If you are interested, I am happy to post the data when I get a chance. 

Neither UoPeople nor WGU are for-profit schools, what are you even talking about?

Clearly, you did not read my post correctly.

Even if UoPeople and WGU are consider public universities, I would not attend their institution because of the poor quality of education, lack of resources, lack of opportunities and the poor branding in the market. But to each their own.

I just realized I skipped right on by this and didn't address it. Evidence, please. Did your "friends" do a handful of courses there before transferring elsewhere? Did they finish? If so, how long did it take them? Have they done coursework anywhere else? Was it ever a consideration that perhaps your "friends" are simply talented in those areas and that's why they didn't find it challenging (enough)? 

If you spend a full 4 years at WGU, yes, maybe the ROI is going to be poor. That'd be nearly $50k! But that's not what WGU is meant for. It's meant for gifted or otherwise qualified students to be able to complete their degree in 1-2 years. Some students are able to maximize transfers and finish in 6 months. There are a handful of schools where spending even $6k for a degree is too much, and WGU is not one of them. You say that WGU is not looked on favorably by employers, but again I want proof. I don't think any member of this forum who has completed a WGU degree has ever come back and said that they regretted it because they can't get hired. Maybe there are some employers who will look upon such a degree with prejudice, but that's true of any degree you get.

Let me tell you a secret: Your CUNY degree? Nobody cares. You might be hot stuff in NYS, but if you ever move to a different area then literally nobody cares. You're nobody in a sea of nobodies. Your CUNY degree is going to have to compete with all the other degrees out there. There are, broadly speaking, three categories when it comes to degrees: famous/prestigious degrees (Ivy League, specialist schools like Georgia Tech), infamous schools (University of Phoenix), and everyone else. You're in the third category, as much as you might dispute that fact. Except in some specific circumstances, your CUNY degree is no better nor worse than the degree that someone else got from WGU, UMPI, the Big 3, Purdue Global, or whatever other schools come up in this forum. I am not saying this to be mean; the reality is that most employers don't care where your degree came from, so long as you actually have a degree.

Also, another secret: you say that WGU is "high school" level stuff (which you haven't provided proof of), but that's pretty true of a lot of LL courses. It's not unique to WGU (assuming this is even partially true). Broadly speaking, an Associate degree is HS level, or only slightly above HS level. It isn't until you you start getting to the 3rd and 4th year courses that the difficulty curve starts ramping up. Some science courses can be difficult by virtue of the subject alone, but most degrees don't specifically require things like physics or chemistry. Also, some prestigious schools are difficult from the get-go, but the vast majority of students will never get the opportunity to go to a prestigious school.

[dfrecore]

I've been on this forum since 2011 (maybe even 2010) and then got active on it with posts in 2013. I've made almost 15,000 posts, and read MANY thousands more. I have helped people get degrees.

The vast majority of people who come to this forum are NOT looking for traditional paths; they don't have the time or money to spend. They are in their 20's-50's, probably have some college credit gathered up over the years (although many do not have any), and are looking for "A" degree. They want to get through it as quickly and cheaply as possible. They may want something specific, in which case we tell them some schools with programs that might fit if The Big 3, UMPI, WGU, etc. won't really work.

The people on here who post the most generally speaking, have a degree, or have started on one, have earned a lot of credits via alternative credit providers like Study.com, Sophia, CLEP, or Coopersmith; and have seen it proven time and again that you CAN get a degree for much less than $10k in 6 months to a year or two. We are helping people, for free, get a degree non-traditionally. Yes, a few help with some other things like Pell Grants, Military TA, or whatever. Many of us have experience in different areas that can provide some additional insight.

What I do not get is someone coming on here, bashing people who are helping people they don't even know on a daily basis, and being a total douche about it. What is the point?

[ss20ts]

Then why wouldn't you qualify then? There has to be information that you are not mentioning or you are just lying. All of disabilities under ADA qualify. Either way, nothing you say adds up. I really think you are lying or not mentioning all of the information.  Did you use up all your Pell & TAP while switching majors and then taking classes you did not need? 

FYI the Excelsior scholarship has numerous limitations including how long you're out of high school and how many semesters you complete. There's this little nugget that would exclude most everyone on this forum from the scholarship:"

Unfortunately, you don't speak for everyone in this forum. Different people with different needs come here looking for solutions. I would not discourage people from applying for resources because it may have not been a fit for you. We don't know if you were even telling the truth about your circumstances. 

As for how long you are out of high school is not true. It based upon when you first attend college and get aid. For example, someone can graduate high school in 2001 but did not start college until 2020. If it is their first time in college in 2020, they may qualify. If they were in and out of college from 2001-2020, they may not qualify. 

My final response to you. I started college in 1993 and attended on and off over the years. So NO I did NOT qualify like most New Yorkers do not. Cuomo had estimated that 940,000 New Yorkers would receive this scholarship which is an insanely inflated number when in reality only 28,000 New Yorkers received the scholarship last year. Most people - as shown in the numerous links I posted previously - are denied the scholarship for a variety of reasons. I also never claimed to speak for everyone on this forum. I spoke only of myself. Unlike you, I did not shove my nose into other posters business with demanding questions about their personal life. I even answered them and you still accuse me of lying. There's a reason people from NYC have a reputation and we're seeing it from you. You're far too aggressive and attacking people on here. You just joined a few days ago. Sit back. Read. Observe. 

I'm the first person on this forum to enroll in YourPace at UMPI and complete one of their degrees. You don't even know who you're attacking. Who even knows why you've gone off on several of us. None of us owes you any explanations yet we've given them to you. All you do is attack us. Please go enjoy your CUNY degree and be quiet until you figure out how this forum is used. And stop being so rude to everyone.