Looking for help developing a roadmap to a medical school-friendly degree

[muu9]

Hello, I'm trying to develop a roadmap to get a degree with a GPA over 3 (and preferably above 3.5).

Currently, I have:
(CLEP) College Comp, Calc 1, Intro Psych, Intro Scoiology, Chemistry
Ap Biology
Physics 1+Lab from a state college ©
I'll probably be taking upper-level classes like OChem from a community college in the fall since that's the cheapest option.
Do Saylor courses come with a grade? If not, which programs do?

I'm considering Charter Oak State College since they give generous credit for a 40th percentile GRE score, which seems like a very efficient way to get credit, but their "general studies" title might not look as good to adcoms as TESU's BA in <subject>.
If I did go with TESU, I would probably choose a BA in Math since https://westcottcourses.com/ exists. (Does something similar exist for other subjects?) 

The mcat might also be an issue- I am a pretty good tester (99th percentile SAT) but I don't know which of the mcat's prerequisites are absolutely necessary and which are just nice to have. Is it worth just studying CARS/social sections and waiting till I take biochem in a proper class, or should I just bite the bullet and self-study biochem now?

I'm not sure if this works, but I would like @MSK9 to weigh in.

[indigoshuffle]

I'm not sure if this works, but I would like @MSK9 to weigh in.

I would avoid doing anything online unless you are specifically targeting Caribbean medical schools. Most states except for Florida and couple others will not allow conferment of an MD medical license if your education is done online. Oh, and by the way, if you take online pre-requisites at a community college and try to pass that off, the medical admissions board WILL FIND OUT because they have connections with people in every community college and they screen your classes very carefully. 

There is Oceania, and Doane, UNE and a couple of others, but I would just go to a state university. 

1) If you're older (35 years old and up) and have clinical exposure, start with a community college and transfer to a state Uni to finish off things like biochem and genetics to show that you can handle Uni level coursework. 

2)If you're young, you need to go straight to Uni and keep straight A's.

Medical admission boards and medical schools, in general, are very conservative and do not have a high opinion of anyone doing anything online. I don't agree with it, and there is research to show online learning is just as good if not better in some ways, but it's how it is for the foreseeable future. Thankfully, the whole COVID thing is making schools look at online classes differently, but that's another topic.

Now when you take that, with the unjustified high cost of university classes, you better think long and hard if medical school is worth it. 
I, personally, don't believe in "good debt" and I think mortgages and student loans are the two biggest scams that bankers have foisted onto the American citizenry... and many of us fell for it. I think medical school is better for folks who already come from money and don't have to agonize about where the tuition money is coming from... just my two cents.

If you want a roadmap to medical school, do it the traditional way. Go to class "ass in seat", get straight A's, start studying for the MCAT while you're doing your pre-requisites, score high on the MCAT (510-520 at least), show a 2-3 year long record of volunteer work, have clinical experience, build relationships with professors over 2-4 years so you can get meaningful recommendation letters, apply, and cross your fingers. And while you're doing all of that, keep this in mind...

https://tinyurl.com/yasgouno

[Jonathan Whatley]

"Upper level" or "upper division" almost always means 300- or 400-level. Organic chemistry is typically – and if you're taking it from a two-year community college it's certainly – 200-level.

How do you think you might get bio labs?

Saylor, and as a general rule ACE, NCCRS, and the credit by examination options frequently discussed here, don't lead to grades on your ultimate transcripts. The biggest exception is that UExcels are graded and I believe those grades will appear on your transcripts at each of the Big Three.

Big thing to keep in mind: AMCAS and AACOMAS calculate GPA differently than your school will. See especially "Grades Included in AMCAS GPAs" on page 4 of the 2020 AMCAS Applicant Guide [pdf]. AP, CLEP, and "Other Test Credit" "are not included in AMCAS GPA calculations."

Charter Oak has expanded its bachelor's majors over the past several years beyond the longtime General Studies standby. There are now titled subject majors in about a dozen subjects, including Psychology, Sociology, and Health Care Administration.

The time for MCAT biochem will come. It's not now. Focus on the courses in front of you now.

[letterchaser202]

Hi there!

Just wondering, but is there a particular reason you are going this route as opposed to a B&M college?

That answer aside, perhaps you can consider completing your BA/BS in a field that works for you, and then apply for admission to a post-bacc program specifically for working on pre-reqs. Check out this list: https://www.uab.edu/medicine/home/images...Nation.pdf
Or even consider a master's degree before med school.

[Jonathan Whatley]

I'm not sure if this works, but I would like @MSK9 to weigh in.

I would avoid doing anything online unless you are specifically targeting Caribbean medical schools. Most states except for Florida and couple others will not allow conferment of an MD medical license if your education is done online.

I think you're making a huge category error, indigoshuffle.

It's true that states, as a general rule I'd describe as strong, are unlikely to issue a medical license if medical school education was done online (except, obviously, for times like now that on-campus medical schools have to make emergency accommodations).

However, doing large parts of undergraduate education prerequisite to medical school online is common.

There is a tier of 'core' undergraduate prerequisite courses for med school that it's nonstandard, and probably still not universally accepted by medical schools, but not unheard of to take online with either home-lab, computer-based, or short-residency provisions for labs. These are the traditional one year each of biology (sometimes substitutable with zoology or A&P), general chemistry, organic chemistry, and physics. Expect it to vary from one medical school to the next whether undergraduate prerequisites in these 'cores' are accepted online.

[natshar]

This is what my school requires for their pre med program. And according to the internet this is pretty standard pre med requirements.

EngIish I and II
Bio I and II with labs
Chem I and II with labs
Physics I and II with labs
Org chem I and II with labs
Biochemistry I (optional)
Anatomy (optional)

This total is about 40 credits depending on the school. Also somesort of math probably at least calc but since math is required for every degree its a given.

Avoid doing these with clep, ace, nccrs, etc. And in person is favored over online. If you do online a 4 yr university would be better. So you could just do all these B&M or online actual classes from a Uni.

Then do everything else with CLEP, study.com, Sophia, etc. You could even if none of those the medical school pre reqs are UL (they probably won't be) you could just do some cheap abd easy UL. End result would be a BA liberal studies from TESU and all credits for medical school.


A better option though might to be to choose a school that accepts ace, etc. Like for example SNHU. And then do the courses I said above and then transfer as much as you can with alt credit. Because if you already have 40 credits at one school might make sense to finish your bachelors there.

Either way no matter where you go clep, ace etc is perfect for non science gen eds and electives. However I am not a med student so if someone else says free electives with alt credit are bad listne to them.

[indigoshuffle]

I'm not sure if this works, but I would like @MSK9 to weigh in.

I would avoid doing anything online unless you are specifically targeting Caribbean medical schools. Most states except for Florida and couple others will not allow conferment of an MD medical license if your education is done online.

I think you're making a huge category error, indigoshuffle.

It's true that states, as a general rule I'd describe as strong, are unlikely to issue a medical license if medical school education was done online (except, obviously, for times like now that on-campus medical schools have to make emergency accommodations).

However, doing large parts of undergraduate education prerequisite to medical school online is common.

There is a tier of 'core' undergraduate prerequisite courses for med school that it's nonstandard, and probably still not universally accepted by medical schools, but not unheard of to take online with either home-lab, computer-based, or short-residency provisions for labs. These are the traditional one year each of biology (sometimes substitutable with zoology or A&P), general chemistry, organic chemistry, and physics. Expect it to vary from one medical school to the next whether undergraduate prerequisites in these 'cores' are accepted online.

I completely agree with you that I'm overreaching. Many people do online stuff at the pre-requisite level.  But the rules vary from school to school and to have a solid chance of being admitted, it is my OPINION that the best way is the traditional way, meaning "ass in seat". If the OP can't, then he can't. If that's the case, doing prereqs online is better than nothing, for sure.

It is true that many people, some of whom are friends of mine, have done a portion of their prerequisites online. However, each and every one of them told me they were asked this when they were brought in for an interview by the medical school. So either the online prereqs are a red flag, or the med school admissions people already know and they want to see if you'll lie. I suspect the latter is more likely. 

In my opinion, doing all of your classes in person, keeps an applicant's choices open. If OP wanted to become a nurse practitioner, then online would never be a problem or even a question. So I guess this brings up another question; does the OP want the title of MD/DO or are they genuinely interested in helping others as a practitioner?

Will you have ego issues being called a Nurse Practitioner or a Physician Assistant as opposed to “doctor “?
Does he want to do surgery? If so go to medical school, but if not, I would highly recommend that OP consider the amount of debt he will rack up. 

If you are "dying" to have the MD title, be prepared to pay for it with money (that you most likely don't have yet) and time. If you are willing to deal with the time, money, disappointments, setbacks that will surely await you on that path, then take the path that will open up the most doors for you in terms of sending out your application---which means avoiding doing things online.  

Keep in mind, this recommendation is coming from someone who is attending WGU. I have nothing against online classes, but medical school admission boards are extremely conservative and they think online prerequisites are easier. If it comes down to 2 applicants with the same GPA, MCAT, volunteer time, etc, they will start to dig deeper into stupid shit, like if you did anything online. It's dumb and unfair, but that's how it is for now.

[Jonathan Whatley]

This total is about 40 credits depending on the school. Also somesort of math probably at least calc but since math is required for every degree its a given.

Very few med schools still require calc. Johns Hopkins did last I heard. Statistics, though, is increasingly being added to med schools' 'recommended' lists.

Avoid doing these with clep, ace, nccrs, etc. 

Agreed, except that I think using a widely recognized, 'traditional' test-out option for English Comp I & II is just fine. (When I was looking at medical school, I used TECEP for both. The original source of the credit is an accredited college.)

if the medical school pre reqs are UL (they probably won't be)

Biochem and anatomy are UL sometimes, the others will be LL almost everywhere.

then transfer as much as you can with alt credit.

There are pros to this approach, but also cons. Your alt credit won't be graded credit toward your AMCAS GPA. It can help to have a cushion of As and B+s in subjects that come easily to you to hold up your GPA. If your GPA is derived from just a very few courses, the punch you'll take from something like a rough Ochem II is magnified.

---

I completely agree with you that I'm overreaching. Many people do online stuff at the pre-requisite level.  But the rules vary from school to school and to have a solid chance of being admitted, it is my OPINION that the best way is the traditional way, meaning "ass in seat". If the OP can't, then he can't. If that's the case, doing prereqs online is better than nothing, for sure.

It is true that many people, some of whom are friends of mine, have done a portion of their prerequisites online. However, each and every one of them told me they were asked this when they were brought in for an interview by the medical school. So either the online prereqs are a red flag, or the med school admissions people already know and they want to see if you'll lie. I suspect the latter is more likely. 

In my opinion, doing all of your classes in person, keeps an applicant's choices open. If OP wanted to become a nurse practitioner, then online would never be a problem or even a question. So I guess this brings up another question; does the OP want the title of MD/DO or are they genuinely interested in helping others as a practitioner?

Will you have ego issues being called a Nurse Practitioner or a Physician Assistant as opposed to “doctor “?
Does he want to do surgery? If so go to medical school, but if not, I would highly recommend that OP consider the amount of debt he will rack up. 

If you are "dying" to have the MD title, be prepared to pay for it with money (that you most likely don't have yet) and time. If you are willing to deal with the time, money, disappointments, setbacks that will surely await you on that path, then take the path that will open up the most doors for you in terms of sending out your application---which means avoiding doing things online.  

Keep in mind, this recommendation is coming from someone who is attending WGU. I have nothing against online classes, but medical school admission boards are extremely conservative and they think online prerequisites are easier. If it comes down to 2 applicants with the same GPA, MCAT, volunteer time, etc, they will start to dig deeper into stupid shit, like if you did anything online. It's dumb and unfair, but that's how it is for now.

Fair, and all good questions and points!

Part of my argument is that there's no evidence it's anything much to worry about if most of the classes that fill out an applicant's bachelor's degree aside from those core science prereqs were completed online.

For med school aspirants specifically, I'd recommend a strong lean toward courses from regionally accredited schools and perhaps 'traditional' alt-credit like CLEP (from the people who brought you AP, very common on traditional transcripts). For med school aspirants specifically, I'd recommend a lean away from the newer wave third-party startup ACE/NCCRS providers.

[muu9]

I'm not sure if this works, but I would like @MSK9 to weigh in.

I would avoid doing anything online unless you are specifically targeting Caribbean medical schools. Most states except for Florida and couple others will not allow conferment of an MD medical license if your education is done online. Oh, and by the way, if you take online pre-requisites at a community college and try to pass that off, the medical admissions board WILL FIND OUT because they have connections with people in every community college and they screen your classes very carefully. 

There is Oceania, and Doane, UNE and a couple of others, but I would just go to a state university. 

1) If you're older (35 years old and up) and have clinical exposure, start with a community college and transfer to a state Uni to finish off things like biochem and genetics to show that you can handle Uni level coursework. 

2)If you're young, you need to go straight to Uni and keep straight A's.

Medical admission boards and medical schools, in general, are very conservative and do not have a high opinion of anyone doing anything online. I don't agree with it, and there is research to show online learning is just as good if not better in some ways, but it's how it is for the foreseeable future. Thankfully, the whole COVID thing is making schools look at online classes differently, but that's another topic.

Now when you take that, with the unjustified high cost of university classes, you better think long and hard if medical school is worth it. 
I, personally, don't believe in "good debt" and I think mortgages and student loans are the two biggest scams that bankers have foisted onto the American citizenry... and many of us fell for it. I think medical school is better for folks who already come from money and don't have to agonize about where the tuition money is coming from... just my two cents.

If you want a roadmap to medical school, do it the traditional way. Go to class "ass in seat", get straight A's, start studying for the MCAT while you're doing your pre-requisites, score high on the MCAT (510-520 at least), show a 2-3 year long record of volunteer work, have clinical experience, build relationships with professors over 2-4 years so you can get meaningful recommendation letters, apply, and cross your fingers. And while you're doing all of that, keep this in mind...

https://tinyurl.com/yasgouno

Aren't all community college classes online right now? There's nothing to "pass off".

"Most states except for Florida and couple others will not allow conferment of an MD medical license if your education is done online." 
Could you give me some more info about this? I can't seem to find anything online.

[dfrecore]

I would say that your lab sciences should be butt-in-seat, but anything else can be done online. So you could do them all at your local CC, then transfer all of that credit to a school that will take those plus ACE credit, and get any major you want that way - the Big 3, or any school that will let you bring in 90cr of CC & ACE.

Your major does not have to be pre-med - it can really be anything you'd like, and I've heard that admissions reps like to have a little variety in there, so take whatever interests you.

Make sure you have the lab sciences, and major courses graded - you probably want at least 60 graded credits. But anything ACE doesn't affect your GPA at all, so really, if you wanted to take a bunch of stuff that way, it might free up your time to study for the things that are actually important.