MSK9's Medical School Thread & Guide

[MSK9]

@MSK9

Im not sure if anyone ever asked, but were you accepted into other medical schools that you applied too?

Yes, I'm currently on the waiting list at two mainland schools, though I went ahead and paid my deposit at St. G.

[LongRoad]

Wherever you go, good luck. It appears that you've done your due diligence and are prepared for anything.

[eLearner]

..since I know nothing about you or your intentions other than what you post on the internet, I'd say it's probably safer to err on the side of caution.

Sure, and that can go both ways. However, I've also been here for a long time so if you go by what I post on the internet as you say, then your concern with my intent wouldn't line up with the history of what I've posted here.

Yes, it is a distance learning board and it's important to understand that distance learning and doctoral medical education are not really a legitimate thing at this point in time, at least as far as practicing in the US.

That is inaccurate. Its legitimacy is a matter of fact since there are licensed Doctors from those programs working in the United States. You're using disqualifying words where it would be more appropriate to use words that denote limit and lower numbers vs. the norm.

Yale's Medical school has an online PA program, and there are others. Granted, those are not MD programs, but they are still medical schools offering medical education, and when we're talking Yale we're talking Ivy League, top tier, best of the best. 

Doctoral medical education is "legitimate" where it is granted approval and license to operate, further legitimized by Doctors who have been licensed to practice from those programs. How you may feel about it is a separate matter. A negative feeling doesn't make it illegitimate. Now, if the question becomes a matter of school quality, that's a different situation, but anyone who has had long enough experience at balanced education boards like this one knows that most negative claims on these types of boards against a school's quality come from people who've never attended the school and are simply offering an opinion that fits a preconceived notion or concept of what they feel a school should be which is not an objective viewpoint.

Let's not forget that COVID has caused medical schools to have to teach their students online, so the positions that states like Indiana (and others) have against having any part of medical education taken online barring a Doctor from licensure will now have to have an exception. The exception, regardless of the current circumstance causing it, will now call in to question why the rule exists at all. 

I make no claims or warranties on the quality of the education the schools I listed offer. I've never attended those schools and have not read enough good or bad about them (and that wasn't through a lack of trying) to make a final judgement on that end, I pointed them out as distance learning options because they are distance learning options and this is a distance learning forum, and because there have been reports of success from each program. In truth however, neither of us knows exactly the quality of them either and that's the point that has to be considered. If we're going to dismiss something simply because it has a distance learning component, then at that point we're at the wrong internet forum.

I don't have an opinion on what the future might hold as far as this is concerned but I'm pretty sure I'd never want a physician who got their medical degree online to work on me. Just putting that out there.

Well, post-COVID, you're going to have to go through an awful lot of trouble to avoid that since medical schools are teaching their students online now. You'll have to search each public profile and go only to Doctors who became licensed pre-COVID. At some point as you get older, that's going to get tricky and will likely wind up an exercise in futility, and there may be situations (like an emergency) where you won't have a choice. You'll also have to do a lot of avoiding with Nurses, too, since they now have online options across the country, some to even become RN's (and that's growing all the time).

Besides all of that, I think the point you're overlooking is that no one can earn their medical degree (or Nursing degree) entirely online. That's never been possible and it never will be. As I explained in a previous post, people who go to these online medical programs receive the same hours of hands-on training that a fully ground-based medical student does because authorities in every state and country mandate this before one can be licensed, not to mention the fact that they have to pass all of the exact same tests as fully ground-based students. The only difference is that the 2 years of basic sciences are taught almost entirely online: IUHS, entirely. COMHSSL, partially. Oceania, partially. But it's been discussed here and on other boards how Stanford medical students (and students from other medical schools) were known to rarely or never come to class and just listened to lectures at 2x (or higher) speeds during the 2 years of basic sciences, only to pass with flying colors and move on to rotations, do well there, and move on to licensure and residency. You actually hear stories like that all the time on the (extremely toxic) StudentDoctorNetwork forum and it's ironic given the stance most there have against online learning. I've always found that comical.

Just because something may be acceptable elsewhere doesn't mean it's wise.

True. It doesn't mean it's unwise either.

California, for all its issues, isn't wrong in their reasoning/recognition.

Except now California (and other states) will have no choice but to make exceptions regarding online medical education within its own country.

It will also be argued going forward that the rule is flawed since it fails to take into account that each student has to take the same amount of hands-on hours and pass the same exams in order to become eligible to practice. The thought process of California's position is about safety, and that's well taken. But at the same time, their reasoning disregards that their own standard safeguards for clinical hours and testing for offline students already accomplishes that when/if applied to both online students.

Let's put this in a real-world sense:

Offline student: Rarely or never shows for class during basic sciences. Listens to lectures at 2x speed. Passes all exams.

Online student: Studies basic sciences online which may also include listening to lectures at 2x speed. Passes all exams.

Nothing was different there, because technically both students listened to their lectures online, both passed the same exams. In reality, the offline student really was an online student just without the designation.

I'm not okay with subpar healthcare training regardless of where it is or who is on the receiving end of it.

Agreed.

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"licensed doctors working in the United States" is both broad and vague.

Broad, sure, that's the nature of things because it would be rather difficult to track down all licensed Doctors in the United States from all online medical programs that have existed over the years.

Vague? I don't think so. "Licensed Doctor" is self-explanatory.

I'd certainly be willing to give consideration to what you present on this statement. I mean, you've rendered a thoughtful reply to my post so I assume you'd be willing to shoulder the burden of proof.

Hmmmm. Well, my initial post was never about "proving" anything, it was about mentioning distance learning options that have been known to be legitimate and produce some successful outcomes, there are other ones that are the opposite and so I didn't post those. If you're looking for me to track down and post a handful of Doctors who are licensed after completing those programs then you've mistaken the intent. Granted, it's not hard to find some by Googling, but if I were interested in proving something for each school I would've done that long ago and those schools would've had to be paying me to do it.

It doesn't take much to become ECFMG certified, which is how caribbean institutions' students are allowed to sit for the USMLE. I'll be the first to declare that "nothing's impossible," but there's a reason the MATCH data isn't published.

It's probably low. By the same token, those schools don't enroll that many students compared to many other schools, but lower admission requirements will generally mean higher dropout rates. That being said, the few Doctors that make it through to licensure proved themselves by passing the same exams and making it through the same clinical hours as their offline-only counterparts.

State law is premepted by federal law, and federal law states that MDs must pass the USMLE in its entirety to practice.

Which is exactly what online medical students have to do.

I appreciate your appreciation. It's okay that you find my cautioning unnecessary, I'll continue cautioning where I feel appropriate and it's your right to object or protest. Ying and yang. People will keep on keeping on and doing what they do.

"Feel" is part of the issue. You're taking a stance against a type of online education on a board dedicated to online education. That's like showing up to a 70's party and protesting against the fact that everyone is wearing bell bottoms.

The tuition debate is best left to another thread

I'm not debating it. There is nothing to debate. The cost is high, that's consensus. But that's part of the point of mentioning what I did. IUHS is much less expensive than almost all ground-based only options. A person accustomed to distance learning (99.99999% of the people here), interested in medical education, and not looking to spend up to $200K to get it might be interested in a program like that.

but I agree that anyone who prepared to spend or borrow money on any kind of education should definitely be doing their research.

That's the main takeaway. Options. Research. What I posted is not going to be right for everybody. What you posted is not going to be right for everybody evidenced by the reply from indigoshuffle. This being a distance learning board, people should know about distance learning options. If a person is going to be a Doctor, they should already be the type of person who researches things thoroughly before they proceed with a major life choice. If not, they shouldn't be trying to become Doctors.

[MSK9]

@eLearner ..then your concern with my intent wouldn't line up with the history of what I've posted here.
I haven't researched your post history. Intent and behavior are not mutually exclusive though honest people often defend themselves when feeling aggrieved.

That is inaccurate.. You're using disqualifying words..
I disagree. I would, again, be interested in evidence of a licensed US physician who completed their medical education largely online. No snark intended here but I promise you I can't be bothered to sweat the minutiae of this conversation enough to split hairs about disqualification verbiage.

Yale's Medical school has an online PA program..
https://paonline.yale.edu/curriculum/ (TLDR: 16 months of in-person clinicals)

Doctoral medical education is "legitimate" where it is granted approval.. How you may feel about it is a separate matter.
It's more a reflection of reality. I'm still waiting for evidence of these physicians you keep mentioning. My feelings are of no consequence but the collective feelings of accreditation orgs are.

A negative feeling doesn't make it illegitimate.
Research and professional consensus do. I'd challenge you to write a letter to federal/state governments/societies/lobbying groups outlining your arguments for why largely online medical doctorate programs are effective.

Now, if the question becomes a matter of school quality..
Objective opinions can also be masked by the perception of statement verbiage on the part of the reader. Similarly, given your offense, I'll go ahead and assume you took my "..looks like a scam" beyond face value. I'm curious as to what research you did on the schools you posted - I mean, other than a quick scan of one or more pages. 

Let's not forget that COVID.. their students online, so the positions that states like Indiana have against having...Doctor from licensure will now have to have an exception. The exception, regardless of the current circumstance causing it, will now call in to question why the rule exists at all. 
Measures enacted during a pandemic versus shady international online medical schools..

I make no claims.. I've never attended those schools and have not read enough good or bad about them (and that wasn't through a lack of trying) to make a final judgement on that end, I pointed them out..
There it is. I'm glad you mentioned this. I made an ultra-concise warning that was seemingly taken offensively by you, hence our huge replies to one another. I'd still be open to seeing these reports or physicians you keep mentioning.

In truth however, neither of us knows..
The mistake here is what you think my intent is. My aforementioned warning is based on the knowledge and experience I've accumulated in the last two years of pre-medical school research and a career of professional investigation. I won't apologize for trying to save someone the heartache of massive debt and a medical career that's over before it begins. A quick web search will reveal these tales if you're interested. A distance learning component implies a part rather than a majority. The first 126 weeks of Oceania's program is virtual...

Well, post-COVID, you're going to have to go through an awful lot of trouble to avoid that since medical schools are teaching their students online now.
Medical schools teaching their students online is a temporary measure. Don't take my word for it. 

You'll have to search.. Doctors who became licensed pre-COVID. At some point as you get older, that's going to get tricky and will likely .. where you won't have a choice. You'll also have to do a lot of avoiding with Nurses, too, since they now have online options across the country, some to even become RN's (and that's growing all the time).
I'm not sure what pre-COVID licensing has to do with anything, and again these online courses at medical schools (those not normally associated with an online curriculum) are a temporary measure. RN programs are affected the same way medical schools are and one can't do a virtual civilian-to-RN program. There will always be a huge piece that's clinical but RN's hands-on experience begins in the first year in most programs.

Besides all of that, I think the point you're overlooking is that no one... entirely online.
You've spent paragraphs defending online medical education. Referencing my Oceania fact a couple responses up, the first 2+ years are online. I'd also like to point out that only address the first half of the school. I can't even fathom what their clinicals must be like. If you can find a list of affiliated medical centers, that is.

That's never been possible and it never will be...
"Standards" are a matter of perspective. If you just found out you had cancer, would you be okay with your physician's online oncology education at Oceania or International whatever? Their clinicals at a run-down community hospital in the Philippines? The quality of education and training from one place to another isn't necessarily equal. What tests are being passed and what percentage of students are passing them? These statistics are normally out in the open at respectable institutions.

The only difference is that the 2 years of basic sciences are taught almost entirely online: IUHS, entirely. COMHSSL, partially. Oceania, partially.
See my above post on Oceania, or check this: https://oum.edu.ws/curriculum-overview-usa/

...Stanford medical students (and students from other medical schools) were known to rarely or never come to class and just listened to lectures at 2x (or higher) speeds during the 2 years of basic sciences, only to pass with flying colors and move on to rotations, do well there, and move on to licensure and residency.
This is a mischaracterization of what is happening. Students at many medical schools often skip classes they already have experience with to study for the USMLE Step 1, since historically Step 1 scores greatly affected residency selection.  I'd like to see quantitative data on what percentage of students do this and "pass with flying colors." This is changing in 2022, given Step 1 was just made Pass/Fail. The total USMLE consists of multiple Steps.

True. It doesn't mean it's unwise either.
Depends on the outcome desired.

Except now California (and other states) will have no choice...
You keep presenting statements like this as if the COVID pandemic was some kind of medical education sea change. It isn't.

It will also be argued going forward that the rule is flawed...
Maybe it's flawed, maybe it isn't. Only time will tell. To call it flawed on the basis that two students, one with a wholly, or largely online years 1 and 2 versus a student with years 1 and 2 in the classroom because they have the same amount of clinical time is baffling to me.  The same can be said for the quality and location of years 3 and 4.

Offline student: Rarely or never shows for class during basic sciences. Listens to lectures at 2x speed. Passes all exams.
This isn't a fact or the norm. I suspect your opinion is predicated upon a non-scientific article.  Also, there's no clinical evidence that suggests less retention based on the speed at which something is listened to. I listen to things at 2x all the time. /shrug

Online student: Studies basic sciences online which may also include listening to lectures at 2x speed. Passes all exams.
Supposition is fine except when you're trying to present it as a reflection of reality without quantitative or even qualitative data. You've only qualified your arguments with vague statements about how graduates of these schools are working in the United States.

Vague? I don't think so. "Licensed Doctor" is self-explanatory.
"Licensed doctor" could be a DC, Ed.D, Ph.D, Psy.D or any number of other professionals eligible to use the title of "Doctor." I'm still waiting for evidence of one of these physicians in the States.

Well, my initial post was never about "proving" anything...
Yet you've made quite the effort in responding to me at length. While the initial post may not have been about proving anything, you certainly seem to be post-initial post. I offered that you might present evidence to quantify that which you defended.

That being said, the few Doctors that make it through to licensure..
Still waiting on where or who those few doctors might be.

"Feel" is part of the issue. You're taking a stance against a type of online education on a board dedicated to online education. That's like showing up to a 70's party and protesting against the fact that everyone is wearing bell bottoms.
You target the word "feel" but spend two  long posts trying to validate/defend schools that by your own admission, you know nothing about. That's like eating the entire bag of chicken nuggets and then complaining they were terrible. My post is more like showing up to a party in the 70's and suggesting one stays away from Cambodia.

[eLearner]

I haven't researched your post history...

Well...

I disagree. I would, again, be interested in evidence of a licensed US physician who completed their medical education largely online. No snark intended here but I promise you I can't be bothered to sweat the minutiae of this conversation enough to split hairs about disqualification verbiage.

Yet, you're literally using disqualifying words instead of words that denote limit, unless saying something "isn't legitimate" means something other than it not being legitimate.

https://paonline.yale.edu/curriculum/ (TLDR: 16 months of in-person clinicals)

Yes, as I've mentioned, all online medical programs require in-person clinicals (as they should), so...

It's more a reflection of reality. I'm still waiting for evidence of these physicians you keep mentioning. My feelings are of no consequence but the collective feelings of accreditation orgs are.
 
Well, It's a reflection of your own reality because you've decided to view things that are uncommon as equal to illegitimate.

You keep asking for me to prove something when my post was never intended to do so. That's not how it works here. We don't post our school options along with case files on its quality and its successful graduates. It's up to each individual school to do that (or each individual student to find it). We post options if we've read some good things, and then it's up to each adult to do their own due diligence.

Research and professional consensus do. I'd challenge you to write a letter to federal/state governments/societies/lobbying groups outlining your arguments for why largely online medical doctorate programs are effective.

I wouldn't have to. Licensed Medical Doctors practicing in the U.S. and other country locales already prove effectiveness. Now, the degree of that effectiveness can be argued, certainly, but there has to be more to the argument than an appeal to authority.

Objective opinions can also be masked by the perception of statement verbiage on the part of the reader. Similarly, given your offense, I'll go ahead and assume you took my "..looks like a scam" beyond face value. I'm curious as to what research you did on the schools you posted - I mean, other than a quick scan of one or more pages. 

I could ask you the exact same question. The difference here is that I only posted those as options without any kind of endorsement of their quality, only their legitimacy, which leaves the door open for people to perform their own due diligence, while you on the other hand are damning both their quality and legitimacy with no such open door.

Measures enacted during a pandemic versus shady international online medical schools..

Measures that will have an impact long after the pandemic. Calling the programs "shady" is not strengthening your argument, it is only revealing strong bias against online education.

There it is. I'm glad you mentioned this. I made an ultra-concise warning that was seemingly taken offensively by you, hence our huge replies to one another. 

How you wrote it was the issue, and I was quite clear on why.

I'd still be open to seeing these reports or physicians you keep mentioning.

You keep asking for me to prove something when my post was never intended to do so. That's not how it works here. We don't post our school options along with case files on its quality and its successful graduates. It's up to each individual school to do that (or each individual student to find it). We post options if we've read some good things, and then it's up to each adult to do their own due diligence.

The mistake here is what you think my intent is. My aforementioned warning is based on the knowledge and experience I've accumulated in the last two years of pre-medical school research and a career of professional investigation. I won't apologize for trying to save someone the heartache of massive debt and a medical career that's over before it begins. A quick web search will reveal these tales if you're interested. A distance learning component implies a part rather than a majority. The first 126 weeks of Oceania's program is virtual...

I'm not mistaken at all on what your intent is. Your warning post and followups have made it clear, that's what's prompted the responses. Second, I'm very much aware of the negatives associated with the schools I posted, but I'm also aware of the positives and they do exist (I would like there to be more of both available to read, but that's neither here nor there). What's interesting however, is that you have asked me for proof a number of times, but here you mention having searched information about those schools. Clearly, you don't need me to prove anything to you since you are capable of finding the information you keep asking for on your own...

With regard to the "component" angle: saying "component" simply identifies that a thing is a part of something, the amount of which varies, and it even varies between the three schools I mentioned. In any case, "component" is the appropriate word here since there is a lot more to medical education after the 2 years of basic sciences.


Medical schools teaching their students online is a temporary measure. Don't take my word for it.

Yes, a temporary measure that will continue having an impact long after COVID.

I'm not sure what pre-COVID licensing has to do with anything, and again these online courses at medical schools (those not normally associated with an online curriculum) are a temporary measure. RN programs are affected the same way medical schools are and one can't do a virtual civilian-to-RN program. There will always be a huge piece that's clinical but RN's hands-on experience begins in the first year in most programs.

What is there to not be sure about? There are Doctors who were licensed before COVID, and there are students being taught during COVID who will eventually become licensed which means they will have had online medical education. Now you'll have a number of newer Doctors across the country/world who've earned some--and potentially most, depending on how long the COVID situation lasts--of their medical education online. This is a circumstance that will challenge your resolve to avoid Doctors who have had online medical education.

As for Nurses, to reiterate my earlier points, no one can get these licenses entirely online anywhere, and never could, and even during COVID I'm sure there are measures in place to make sure students are getting the necessary hands-on training where needed. But this obviously shows us that if this approach can be done now with schools that didn't normally do it before, it can be done going forward.

Your worst nightmare is likely going to become reality going forward for a number of reasons, like being able to reduce in-seat hours for instructors and reduce costs for things that don't require in-person training, and you can especially count on it if the outcomes show no change or show an increase in success rates. Colleges/Universities (for-profit and non-profit alike) are businesses and they operate as such. Where they can bring in more money and cut expenses, they will.

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You've spent paragraphs defending online medical education.

*GASP* And on an online education forum! Crazy, right!?!?!?

Referencing my Oceania fact a couple responses up, the first 2+ years are online. I'd also like to point out that only address the first half of the school.

I actually mentioned 2 years of basic sciences being online for each school in a previous post. There was never any specific focus in my initial post regarding Oceania, but about 2 years of online is the norm for those types of schools.

I can't even fathom what their clinicals must be like. If you can find a list of affiliated medical centers, that is.

With the first sentence, you appear to be making a negative judgement on quality without knowing the quality...

IUHS has deals with some hospitals and they will also help students find a place. COM has its own place. Oceania has its own place.

"Standards" are a matter of perspective. If you just found out you had cancer, would you be okay with your physician's online oncology education at Oceania or International whatever? Their clinicals at a run-down community hospital in the Philippines? The quality of education and training from one place to another isn't necessarily equal. What tests are being passed and what percentage of students are passing them? These statistics are normally out in the open at respectable institutions.

This proves we're debating with different motivations. You're motivated to make arguments against the quality of these schools (without knowing if the quality is good or bad mind you, just using appeal to authority and appeal to popularity arguments) because they are online programs, while I'm simply not motivated to make arguments for or against their quality. My responses have stayed strictly to things like legitimacy of the schools through their licenses to the operate, and the licensing and practicing of Doctors from their programs, quality was never a point of the post.

We're not here to assure or make warranties on the quality of the schools we post about. This is not an accreditation agency.

We post options and we let the public decide and we don't really fight about quality because there are many variables involved and we realize that without attending the schools ourselves it's virtually impossible to be sure of the quality of each. Now, if we hear bad things from students, accreditors, governments, etc. and it is relevant to the thread, it gets brought up as a natural progression of the discussion. It seems as if you're expecting posts to be filled with warnings and caveats, and that is not what generally happens here unless someone is starting a thread to alert people of some kind of breaking egregious action. We expect adults to do their own due diligence.

To address your oncology scenario, the flaw in that concept is that the Doctor in front of me will have had to successfully pass all of the safeguards in place to assure that he/she has the requisite knowledge to reach that point in the first place. Besides, there are Doctors from poor countries that are top Doctors in the U.S. (and abroad), and there are Doctors from the medical schools of economically thriving nations who are terrible, some so terrible they lose their licenses. This isn't as black-and-white as you believe it to be. There is more to it. The individual plays a critical role in all circumstances.

See my above post on Oceania, or check this: https://oum.edu.ws/curriculum-overview-usa/[url=https://oum.edu.ws/curriculum-overview-usa/][/url]

I read that a long time ago. There is nothing new there that I didn't already discuss unless you're talking about very specific numbers which don't negate any of the points I've made since I was never posting a focus on the schedules of any single school.

This is a mischaracterization of what is happening. Students at many medical schools often skip classes they already have experience with to study for the USMLE Step 1, since historically Step 1 scores greatly affected residency selection.  I'd like to see quantitative data on what percentage of students do this and "pass with flying colors." This is changing in 2022, given Step 1 was just made Pass/Fail. The total USMLE consists of multiple Steps.

No, no it isn't a mischaracterization. The Stanford situation was specifically mentioned because it was a sort of experiment, from a top school even, and it went right. Moreover, you're reaching far to say what happens at many medical schools when it comes to how students choose to study. This is not something you're privy to (how could anyone be, there are too many students, no one can know them all) and neither am I which is why I never claimed it happens at all, most, or even many schools, just that there has been information out there about it having happened. I never said anything about how prevalent it is nor any other specifics you've attached to it, just that there are other schools where students have been known to do this.

You keep presenting statements like this as if the COVID pandemic was some kind of medical education sea change. It isn't.

I'm not doing anything but stating a fact. The fact is that there are about to be a wave of new Doctors over the next decade who will have had medical education online. It is what it is.

Maybe it's flawed, maybe it isn't. Only time will tell. To call it flawed on the basis that two students, one with a wholly, or largely online years 1 and 2 versus a student with years 1 and 2 in the classroom because they have the same amount of clinical time is baffling to me.  The same can be said for the quality and location of years 3 and 4.

That's not the point being made. Obviously, the quality of the facility is going to have an affect on the quality of the clinical training, I'm not disputing that, neither am I disputing the variables that take place during clinical training that can affect its quality, that's totally beside the point being made. The problem here is that you'res speaking as if all of these places have poor facilities without actually knowing that for sure. IUHS for instance has U.S students doing clinical training at U.S. hospitals no different from any other U.S. medical school. This is why blanket views are inherently flawed.

The other main point you're overlooking is that those IUHS students better know their stuff or they won't make it through clinicals at these U.S hospitals, and I can bet that they REALLY get run through the wringer when it's known that they're from an online program. So making it through isn't a guaranteed thing, the students have to make it successfully and not everyone does. This is another safeguard of the system that works and I'm all for it. I also accept that if they made it through, they've proven that they have what it takes. My guess is, you still wouldn't accept it because they received medical education online, and that's where our positions will remain diametrically opposed.

This isn't a fact or the norm.

I don't know what you're trying to say here. That was a hypothetical situation about two types of students listening to lectures online. It's also a situation that absolutely happens in real life and we know that because we can read about people doing it in ground-based medical schools. The first place I read about people doing it was on the Student Doctor Network Forum, but it wasn't the last.

I never claimed it was "the norm" because no one knows for sure just how prevalent it is. I will say however, that it would be naive to think that in this digital age that it couldn't be widespread. It's definitely a fact that people do it because students have admitted to doing it, you just admitted to doing it, and I have no reason to think you won't do it in medical school, too, especially since you said:

I suspect your opinion is predicated upon a non-scientific article.  Also, there's no clinical evidence that suggests less retention based on the speed at which something is listened to. I listen to things at 2x all the time. /shrug

You suspect wrongly. I never said anything negative about retention and the speed at which something is listened to. I don't even know where you're getting that from. You've misunderstood what that part of the post was communicating...

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I suspect your opinion is predicated upon a non-scientific article.  Also, there's no clinical evidence that suggests less retention based on the speed at which something is listened to. I listen to things at 2x all the time. /shrug

You suspect wrongly. I never said anything negative about retention and the speed at which something is listened to. I don't even know where you're getting that from. You've misunderstood what that part of the post was communicating...

Supposition is fine except when you're trying to present it as a reflection of reality without quantitative or even qualitative data. You've only qualified your arguments with vague statements about how graduates of these schools are working in the United States.

With the last statement and the current one I'm responding to, you seem to be confusing yourself now. The part you responded to here has to do with online students who would have no other choice but to listen to their lectures online to compare to offline students who do the same. That has nothing to do with what your quote is talking about.

"Licensed doctor" could be a DC, Ed.D, Ph.D, Psy.D or any number of other professionals eligible to use the title of "Doctor."

That's a really bizarre reach. Given the context, it's obvious we're talking about MDs, especially since DC's, Ed.Ds and other types generally don't go to medical school to begin with... you said you're not splitting hairs, but that's akin to splitting the very molecules of the structure that makes a hair a hair.


I'm still waiting for evidence of one of these physicians in the States.


No need to wait. The evidence you seek can be found through any modern search engine and/or the school sites themselves, some are even on the front page of the school's sites. I've done it, you can do it too.

Yet you've made quite the effort in responding to me at length.

Not much effort, I type really fast, although I could say you've done the same to me (granted, differing lengths). I don't mind, it's a discussion board after all...

While the initial post may not have been about proving anything, you certainly seem to be post-initial post. I offered that you might present evidence to quantify that which you defended.

Then you are misconstruing if you're meaning that for anything beyond online learning which it would make sense to defend at an online learning forum. But for the schools specifically, I have not once defended the quality of any of the three schools, nor their numbers or any of the others things you've brought up. I also have not taken the bait on posting names which negates your claim that I am trying to "prove" something, because if I were I would've posted names (and easily could), but I also see no reason to do that when you can find it yourself as some of these schools post successful licensed Doctors on their sites, some on the front page. I have simply questioned your position of denigrating the schools on the basis of them being online and that should be expected on a forum dedicated to online learning. 

All of that being said, given that you've claimed to have researched things about these schools and even posted a link from one, I have a strong feeling that you already are well aware of some Doctors who are licensed from these programs but for some reason still asking me to post names and places (even though it is of no benefit to the intent of the initial post I made), but I digress.

Still waiting on where or who those few doctors might be.

No need to wait. The evidence you seek can be found through any modern search engine and/or the school sites themselves, some are even on the front page. I've done it, you can do it too.

You target the word "feel" but spend two  long posts trying to validate/defend schools that by your own admission, you know nothing about.

None of that happened. I never said "I know nothing about these schools" nor did I imply it. Here is what I said, exactly:

"I make no claims or warranties on the quality of the education the schools I listed offer. I've never attended those schools and have not read enough good or bad about them (and that wasn't through a lack of trying) to make a final judgement on that end..."

What end? QUALITY. 

How can I make a final judgement on the quality of anything I have not seen or tried for myself? How would that be fair? You are willing to make a negative final judgement on the quality of schools you've never seen or studied with yourself, and I am not willing to make a positive or negative judgement on them. As I've said before, they were posted as three options because there have been some good things posted about them over time with successful outcomes.

That's like eating the entire bag of chicken nuggets and then complaining they were terrible. My post is more like showing up to a party in the 70's and suggesting one stays away from Cambodia.

No on both because the premise that quote is born from is your misinterpretation/misquote of something I said regarding my knowledge on the three schools.

====

I think adults here can research things for themselves and make a decision without being scared with red letters of doom and gloom, biases against the very theme and reason for being that this forum exists on, and accusations that don't align with fact.

I've said my piece.

[ThatBankDude]

Although my brother is a PGY-1 in Emergency Medicine, I am not very knowledgeable on medical school education outside of the United States. Is St. George successful at placing students in US Residencies? How are their USMLE passing rates? Are they respected in the United States or seen as inferior since they are a Caribbean medical school?

[MSK9]

..defensive post with double-speak

Also,

I think adults here can research things for themselves and make a decision without being scared with red letters of doom and gloom, biases against the very theme and reason for being that this forum exists on, and accusations that don't align with fact.

I've said my piece.

I think by now a reply-for-reply response is not practical for time, but your post essentially defends not taking a certain position while taking that exact position. Now you're trying to split hairs to validate your point while also distancing yourself from it by stating "I make no claims" and so on. Interesting dichotomy.

You're also trying to draw a link between my opinions on online medical education with general online education, which is lunacy and would make me an utter hypocrite given how I got through my undergraduate degree. It looks like someone (you) ran out arguments.

For all your "there was never anything to prove or defend" nonsense, you still haven't presented evidence of anything. Keep trying to convince whomever and I'll keep cautioning.

---

Although my brother is a PGY-1 in Emergency Medicine, I am not very knowledgeable on medical school education outside of the United States.  Is St. George successful at placing students in US Residencies? How are their USMLE passing rates? Are they respected in the United States or seen as inferior since they are a Caribbean medical school?

Great question. I'd say yes based on my own personal research but I would encourage anyone to seek out the information for themselves.. don't take my word for it. The placement rate for US-eligible international medical graduates (generally American citizens) is  93%. In 2018, the USMLE pass rate was 96% but I'm not sure if this was the first-time pass rate or if it were based on passes, regardless of attempts.

Many pre-meds, especially online, bad mouth St. George's for a few reasons. 1.) It's a for-profit, private school (and expensive) 2.) It's a Caribbean school, 3.) The attrition rate is higher than in US-mainland schools. The same students often refer to NRMP MATCH data which shows MATCH rates somewhere in the ballpark of 56% which is only accurate if you account for the fact that among those applying for the MATCH are foreign international medical graduates, i.e. people who came from countries outside of the United States who applied to the United States MATCH. Like I mentioned earlier, the MATCH rate for US international medical graduates (from SGUSOM) is 93%, a figure that is technically higher than many mainland schools.

There are some legitimately bad Caribbean and international medical schools, but the "big four" (St. G, Ross, AUC, and Saba) have respectable MATCH rates when considering American international graduates coming back to the States.

When considering international schools, I think the best one can do is talk with attending physicians who have worked with Caribbean grads or Caribbean grads themselves who are now attending physicians. The Caribbean route, as I understand it, requires a little more grit and sacrifice. At the end of the day, medical school doesn't make the physician.. residency does, or so the attendings tell me.

[indigoshuffle]

Look, I think at the end of the day, you will be successful. I appreciate that there are opportunities for non-traditional students at the big 4. Yes, these are for-profit schools, but if you work hard, you will survive. I spoke to a few Caribbean school graduates over the past few days since my last post and I realized that it is indeed risky, it's actually harder than U.S. schools, and they're for profit. But if a person has a dream, a plan, and work ethic, they can get through. A major problem I continue to have with St. George is the lie about the attrition rate. Either they're lying or someone is fudging the numbers. 
On the positive side, I've seen people getting generous discounts at St George. They even have a 50% off tuition for Southern Ocean Medical Center employees.

[anewmanx]

How dearly I wish I could go to medical school, but life happens.

I hope you get an acceptance soon state-side. Congrats on the hard work. You have a long road ahead of you.

[bjcheung77]

How dearly I wish I could go to medical school, but life happens.

I hope you get an acceptance soon state-side. Congrats on the hard work. You have a long road ahead of you.

Hmm, I'm just curious, Have you applied to a Medical School? And to how many? Which states?