TESC No Longer Planning Credits on Academic Evaluations!?

[ronaldemail1]

Wow! If anyone wants the real story, the truth is that TESC would not be able to remain accredited without some barriers on accepting credit. The case of the "expired" ACE credits is the perfect example, TESC is obligated by the Middle States Commission on Higher Education to follow basic guidelines for credit in order to keep their regional accreditation (policy is here: http://www.msche.org/documents/Transfer,...--1110.pdf). This policy says it quite clearly:

"Courses, programs, and other learning experiences are judged on their learning outcomes, using valid evaluation measures, including third-party review by appropriately qualified reviewers and recommendations from organizations experienced with such evaluations (e.g., ACE, CAEL)." - Policy from link above

No matter the situation, when accepting third party credit from places which aren't regionally accredited (such as ACE, other non institutions, or NA schools like Penn Foster), TESC is obligated to as stated above, "judge...using valid evaluation measures...including third-party review...[such as] ACE, CAEL." If that source deems something is no longer valid or was completed outside of the valid dates then TESC shouldn't accept it or they could have trouble with keeping the accreditation. Course planning has been a great thing but leaves open the possibility to violate this by leaving an indefinite window of opportunity to complete work which may lose the validity needed to be worthy.

I don't think TESC is being unreasonable and after now attending two other RA schools, TESC remains the easiest to work with on credits and I see nothing wrong with what they are doing. The "club" of being an RA school is what keeps education such as mine valid in the minds of others. The policies exist for a reason and if TESC could I'm sure they would rather grant the credit then have to fight it, but for the reason above and because of what probably ended up as people abusing the credit planning system and causing them to violate the policy, TESC is taking the safer route and protecting themselves. People will still get their credits but will have to be more careful about their timing and wait for acceptance. That's a small price to pay for the long list of things that TESC and only a few other schools (the big three and several others throughout the country) will let you do including no residency requirement (other than capstone's on some degrees), huge credit acceptance limits, and acceptance of so many different exams, workplace training, and/or military training. I would encourage people to shop around and try to find a better set of schools than the one's on this forum, if you do then please share it, until then you don't need to trash a school over one policy or go after one person such as Dr. Keel who is doing his job to keep TESC going. TESC is not part of the "mafia" as you said, but is part of the "club" of a very select few schools that are very accommodating of their students and I am proud to be a graduate of their institution. TESC rejected some of my ACE credits for being "vocational" or being out of the date of ACE's approval, but that is part of the process and I used a lot more credits for my particular degree than any traditional school would have.

Thank you, your post made things clear for me. Now I understand clearly why they provided that reply. They need to comply with certain rules to keep their Accreditation.
Something that is completely normal and acceptable and that is actually mentioned on their pdf orientation documents.

[Ace_King]

I don't know if I am understanding this correctly. So is this for students who want to plan expired ACE courses or other non-traditional method of credits (when they haven't completed the credits yet) on the academic evaluation tool? In this case I just see TESC protecting themselves as an institution so that they won't lose RA accreditation, just like Cooperalex2004 mentioned. I can see where students can abuse the system and plan a ACE course that losses ACE approval and having it planned on an evaluation (pretty much cheating the system). The thing with Penn Foster or Straighterline is that they could lose ACE accreditation on courses they offer and not get it back. It costs money and if the coursework is outdated or needs to be updated to ACE guidelines.

As far as planning, they probably won't plan it anymore. But if you get a nice adviser he/she will tell if you if that course will meet the criteria for your degree plan, without actually "planning it". I don't see much of a big issue, I want TESC to remain accredited forever!

[mrs.b]

But if you get a nice adviser he/she will tell if you if that course will meet the criteria for your degree plan, without actually "planning it".

That was my experience. I would ask something like:
Good morning,

I found XYZ course from ABC found here: (link to course description direct from potential credit source) which is currently recommended for credit by ACE (ACE # for reference), and am curious if it could potentially fit in my BSBA-HROM degree plan as the last of the three Area of Study electives. If I were to take it, would it work?

Thanks again!


And would often receive a response like:
Good afternoon (Mrs.B),

I reviewed the linked course, and agree that it could work as an elective for your Area of Study, provided it is submitted by ACE transcript and meets the Registrar's acceptance of credit standards at the time of submission.

I hope that answers your question. Please let me know if I may be of further assistance.

Thank you,
(Advisor that always answered my emails)


No, it would not go on the evaluation itself, but it was not difficult to remember that blank on the evaluation was placemarker for XYZ course for planning purposes. They would plan CBEs from CLEP, DSST, ECE, etc. without issue (same deal - "I am planning to take a Labor Relations ECE exam through Excelsior College and transfer, can you please enter the course equivalency on my evaluation as planned credit in my Area of Study elective section?") so there were not many blanks to serve as placeholders.

[bluk30]

“...If that source deems something is no longer valid or was completed outside of the valid dates then TESC shouldn't accept it or they could have trouble with keeping the accreditation. Course planning has been a great thing but leaves open the possibility to violate this by leaving an indefinite window of opportunity to complete work which may lose the validity needed to be worthy.

The "club" of being an RA school is what keeps education such as mine valid in the minds of others... TESC is not part of the "mafia" as you said, but is part of the "club" of a very select few schools that are very accommodating of their students and I am proud to be a graduate of their institution.”

And there's the rub. Can you tell me exactly what this "validity needed to be worthy" is in simple terms? If one of Penn Foster’s courses has been the same for several years but Susie in accounting forgets to send in the check to Ace, then how exactly is that course no longer “valid”?

It’s just a faith based bias, a marketing tool being used to make one product look better than another. RA is the college version of a name brand. If accreditation is really just a test of quality, then why isn’t it offered for free?

Look at the tens of thousands of people out there learning from places like Khan Academy. No accreditation. No group of illustrious educators behind it giving it the thumbs up. Yet people still learn. Isn’t LEARNING supposed to be the point of college, not who belongs to what club?

In this way, it’s much like believing a cracker is the body of Christ because it has been blessed by a priest. No. It’s still the same old cracker. There is no functional quantitative difference no matter how many “experts” give it the thumbs up.

You’ve done a good job of outlining how schools act as a gatekeepers. By giving students a hard time about credits, those students either take the easy way out and do their coursework with an RA club member, or they go back and complain to places like Penn Foster, putting pressure on them to pay their dues and play nice. Basically what you’ve linked to is the instruction manual for an extortion racket. The problem is that we customers accept this and go along with the game. It’s really quite delusional if you think about it. No one wants to address the elephant in the room and that elephant has been sitting on us for years.

If a car salesman told me I could only buy a car from him if I agreed to get service and replacement parts from his friends, then I’d tell him to go to hell. Sugar coat it all you want, it's a self serving policy.

I’m an idealist. I think “clubs” like this are antithetical to human progress and intelligence. Hopefully in twenty years my children will have better technology based options for education than dealing with the same good ol’ boy network that so many of us here “tolerate” as a means to an end.

[ryoder]

It is a government entity with government employees. You are lucky they even answered the phone.

[Ace_King]

That was my experience. I would ask something like:
Good morning,

I found XYZ course from ABC found here: (link to course description direct from potential credit source) which is currently recommended for credit by ACE (ACE # for reference), and am curious if it could potentially fit in my BSBA-HROM degree plan as the last of the three Area of Study electives. If I were to take it, would it work?

Thanks again!


And would often receive a response like:
Good afternoon (Mrs.B),

I reviewed the linked course, and agree that it could work as an elective for your Area of Study, provided it is submitted by ACE transcript and meets the Registrar's acceptance of credit standards at the time of submission.

I hope that answers your question. Please let me know if I may be of further assistance.

Thank you,
(Advisor that always answered my emails)


No, it would not go on the evaluation itself, but it was not difficult to remember that blank on the evaluation was placemarker for XYZ course for planning purposes. They would plan CBEs from CLEP, DSST, ECE, etc. without issue (same deal - "I am planning to take a Labor Relations ECE exam through Excelsior College and transfer, can you please enter the course equivalency on my evaluation as planned credit in my Area of Study elective section?") so there were not many blanks to serve as placeholders.

Pretty much what you said you can get over the phone as well. I personally and my opinion of course, I won't even bother through emails with TESC. The response time is just ridiculous. Just get on the phone and call. Better yet, SET AN APPOINTMENT with an actual adviser who works in your degree plan! Trust me, if you get a live adviser on the phone who works in your area of major, you tell them your ACE, ALEKS, or any other non-traditional source of credit and they will tell you right over the phone if it will go in your degree plan. I called and spoke with all different advisers without planning any course in, and asked over the phone if they will accept this course and if it matched the course equivalency of TESC. And it worked, no problems! Matter a fact, I don't think I ever planned any courses expect the VESI courses I took in December. Everything else I called on (or looked on the forums for an answer) and got a verification that it will match the course equivalency and that it will fit into my degree program. So yes, try calling next time and set an appointment. And if they ever hang up on you, go on TESC's Facebook page and write a complaint of the person you spoke with. They will work with you to get your answer.

I had someone hang up on me too. I've also been transferred into the "busy signal--> disconnect" a number of times. I don't believe it was an accident.

Here's the thing. Planning was a cool tool. It helped those of us D-I-Y degree people to construct perfect plans with a bit of extra security that it would all fall into place once we completed the credit. Truth is, most colleges don't do this. I don't know if any others do, but I have no way of knowing. So, this just means one fewer tool, and that anyone doing their planning will have to be a bit more on top of it than ever before. As everyone knows, just because it's planned, doesn't mean it's official- they can still move things around. I do think (unconfirmed) that they use a computer software program to place courses, (because, really, I can't imagine a TESC person capable of of doing it for thousands of students a day) so generally, it all falls into place. Of course, know EXACTLY where it should go and how it fits in BEFORE taking the course....just in case you have to "school" the advisors lol.:coolgleam:

I agree I remember I took a couple VESI courses in December and when I finally thought I was finished I remember submitting my graduation form and sat three weeks. I finally got a response saying one of my VESI courses was not a three credit hour course and actually a two credit hour course. So I was in a rush to finally complete a final course, even though it was planned in my evaluation a month prior. Don't go by evaluations 100% people.

[sanantone]

I sense that there is a slight misunderstanding of the Middle States' policies.

Courses, programs, and other learning
experiences are judg
ed on their learning
outcomes, using valid evaluation measur
es, including third-party review by
appropriately qualified reviewers and
recommendations from organizations
experienced with such eval
uations (e.g., ACE, CAEL).

This gives TESC the freedom to evaluate non-traditional credits on their own or to rely on an evaluation service such as ACE. ACE, CAEL, NCCRS, etc. are not required. TESC and Excelsior (same accreditor) already do this with certifications and licenses such as COMPTIA, EMT, FEMA, and prior learning assessments. TESC and Excelsior even have the freedom to determine that DETC is an acceptable accreditor as long as it's stated in their policies. Excelsior already accepts non-ACE, Penn Foster courses on a case-by-case basis. http://www.excelsior.edu/transferring-cr...ed-schools If TESC wanted to, they could make an articulation agreement with Penn Foster or any other NA school. SACS is the strictest, institutional accreditor and even their schools have the freedom to accept NA credits. I doubt that ACE is tougher than DETC. A Penn Foster course does not lose its validity when it loses ACE approval. Penn Foster is accredited by an organization that is recognized by the U.S. Department of Education. That should be good enough and it's definitely better than ACE-approval, in my opinion.

The acceptance or denial of transfer credit
is not determined exclusively on the basis
of the accreditation of the sending institution
or the mode of delivery, but, rather, will
consider course equivalencie
s, including expected learni
ng outcomes, with those of
the receiving institution’s curricula and st
andards.

TESC does not blindly accept RA credits. They evaluate them for course equivalencies and college-level work. TESC can and has determined that some RA courses are developmental even though they weren't considered developmental at the original institution. TESC has determined that some courses are applied-professional and cannot be used for general education or liberal arts majors. TESC has also determined that some liberal arts credits include so much of two areas of study that they could only be used for general education electives. As long as TESC did this with NA credits and made a clear policy for doing so, they would not be in violation of the Middle States' policies and they would not be in danger of losing their accreditation. TESC doesn't even follow ACE recommendations anyway.

I thought this was interesting.

Evaluations of transcripts and experiential
learning are conducted
in a timely manner
in order to be informative in academic
advising and decisi
on-making. Appropriate
counseling (including any impact on fina
ncial aid eligibility) by well-informed
faculty and others, and other s
upport services are available.

TESC is a big FAIL on this. Did I mention that I made an advisement appointment with Mirsky and she wouldn't help me then either? I know it's the government; but, when I applied to the public schools of University of Houston - Victoria and Angelo State University, I was NOT treated this way.

I always advise the opposite of ACE_King. On the phone is where you're most likely to get bad information and it's a lottery whether or not you're going to get someone who specializes in your program. TESC has actually gotten pretty fast at responding to emails. I've been waiting a couple of business days lately.

http://www.msche.org/documents/Transfer,...--1110.pdf

If you want more proof that Middle States schools are allowed to accept NA credit, take a look at a HETA (consortium of schools that are open to accepting credits from all valid accreditors) member.

Page 15.

A course may be transferred to a Centenary College degree program if (a) the student has
earned a grade of "C
-
" or above for the course; (b) the course was taken in a degree
granting, regionally or nationally accredi
ted institution, or any school/college which is an
active candidate for such accreditation as determined by the
Accredited Institutions of
Postsecondary Education and Programs,
Harris and Shelly, American Council on Education,
published annually; © the c
ontent of the course is the equivalent of a course offered at
Centenary and/or consistent with the goals and objectives of the College's curriculum.

http://www.centenarycollege.edu/cms/file..._final.pdf

[mrs.b]

I always advise the opposite of ACE_King. On the phone is where you're most likely to get bad information and it's a lottery whether or not you're going to get someone who specializes in your program. TESC has actually gotten pretty fast at responding to emails. I've been waiting a couple of business days lately.

This is my same experience. The very few times I called, I got very vague responses and could usually tell the person I spoke to was not familiar with my specific degree plan. The advising appointments require you be able to set aside 30 minutes during the day M-F, and know a day or two in advance when that 30-minutes will fall which was never an option for me. If you have a response in writing, you have a little more leeway in questioning how a course applies should it appear differently on the evaluation without coming across as merely argumentative. In anything in business - and this is a business - getting things in writing is generally a good idea. Planning it into the evaluation is one form of writing but when the course transfers and applies somewhere else, that "proof" is no longer available, and it comes down to just your word and the memory of the Advisor that helped you (that helps a couple hundred other people a day). A backup email that said it was tentatively approved to fill a specific requirement is invaluable.

As far as response times, I usually got an email response the morning after I emailed (I generally had time to email in mid- to late-afternoon). If I emailed earlier in the morning, I often got a response by that afternoon SO LONG AS the questions were specific, brief, and provided the necessary references to check for an accurate answer. Maybe they have become slower in the last ~6-9 months?

[Chebasaz]

Interesting thread. I've always felt comfortable recommending TESC to folks, but this has been giving me second thoughts. Is this level of service normal?

[sanantone]

Interesting thread. I've always felt comfortable recommending TESC to folks, but this has been giving me second thoughts. Is this level of service normal?

At the time, it was worth it for me to put up with TESC's bad customer service because they had no capstones for most degree programs, they took my CC credits as UL, they required and still require less UL credit, and they took and still take more tests as UL. I don't think COSC and EC had social science programs at the time, so criminal justice, psychology, and liberal arts/studies were my only options. I was definitely not getting a liberal arts/studies degree. For me to satisfy the UL requirements at the other two schools, at that time, I would have had to take expensive courses at a 4-year university in comparison to the $150 courses at the local CCs or I would have had to take ECEs which were about $300 each. Most ECEs are now $95.

I do have to say that TESC has the best initial evaluation and they'll do it twice before you enroll. Excelsior has the worst. If anyone wants to see a comparison of all my evaluations, I'll post them. Excelsior's was really vague and I wasn't about to pay the enrollment fee just to see where I stood.