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US vs foreign tech workers (moved from Study.com New CS Courses)
#1
(12-14-2018, 08:25 AM)posabsolute Wrote: I just passed the exam, it was in the most difficult exams I did at SDC, I would compare it to applied managerial accounting in terms of difficulty.

That being said, I didn’t study enough, I basically did the practice tests for all the sections and went for it. I got taken by surprise a couple of time in the exam. In total, I spent 2 weeks on the course. In general, an 80+ quiz course I would do in 1 week.

I think most people can have a high mark with a couple of nights of study. Even understanding the Algebra and programming stuff, you can youtube your way to get more background information on those.

@posabsolute you still don't get it. and yet you elucidated so much for me! thank you!

You know I used to wonder why the US has a shortage for programming talent and guys from China and India lead a lot of the breakthrough research at major companies and universities and why US companies crave this talent yet people with CS degrees from US universities are unemployed in the US or seek employment in fields that have nothing to do with tech.

I wondered how someone from my tiny little island, that dosen't even show up on a map would have someone who ends up at Raytheon getting a patent for ground breaking OLED work, when there are hundreds of thousands of STEM graduates in the US.

How are more silicon valley workers are born outside the US than inside?

http://svcip.com/files/SVCIP_2017.pdf#page=4

How is it in some STEM fields graduate students (90%) are not from the US?

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013...n-students

Then I read your post and realize why. Whereas for me CS, technology is my life. I eat, breath and sleep technology. My friends in other countries dedicate their lives to tech. We do it for fulfillment and have a passion and drive.

Whereas MOST people in the US treat learning like something secondary, its all about passing that test huh?  and making the big bucks?
getting the CS degree because it "sounds good" to have? or it's "hot" right now?

Oh boy this makes me so happy! I'm surely getting that H1B now! Your post made it so clear to me why there is such a tech talent gap despite universities doing their best to churn out people with the CS degree.

Just keep doing what you are doing. Pass that test man! Guess your way! Cause it means that people with the passion will have a better chance of getting that interview and actually making progress that would benefit humanity.

I'm just waiting for the "code monkey bust" when AI finally replaces the web site and app builders and only people with real CS knowledge and passion shine. 

I'm not arguing or anything. It's just the world we live in. I attend Thomas Edison State, yet Nikola Tesla was the brains behind our modern world.
NASA landed men on the moon, yet it is taking Elon Musk to take men to Mars.

It's all so clear to me now.
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#2
Don't generalize about people from a particular region. It just shows ignorance.
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#3
@posabsolute I already run my own CS group, blog and free classes locally for teens in the local Police Youth Club. So I dont need to try, thanks for your suggestion!

I just want to see passionate people doing CS, so far everyone posted on here that I read is only concerned with getting the paper, and its just saddens me.

Oh its actually not my first use case I though about, its just the simplest I thought would require the least exmplantion.

Its just those guys without degrees and "test guessers" are learning new frameworks and thinking they know so much! AI is actually making great progress with automating website building so its only a matter if time. They're called 'web monkeys' for a reason you know. I'm just waiting for the hype bust. Too much noise to find the real groundbreaking work.

Btw, actually my first use case was developing my own grid cells for mobile robot navigation, since SLAM is so expensive computationally and difficult in the real world. I'm trying to secure funding and build a low cost mobile robot impleleming this! If I dont secure investors! Look out for me on indegogo!!

So yes I do think I am entitled. I worked my butt of to understand what I love. Its wrong for someone who guessed their way through to get that position. But thats the world today. Its my feeling and you cant be mad at me for that. Its MY feeling.

@MNomadic Oh I didt generalize, I did say most and stats dont lie man. Ypu read my links? And H1Bs finish lightning fast and the VM are stem jobs.

Not generalizing, just stating facts.

I think ignoring facts is more ignorant.
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#4
Quote:You know I used to wonder why the US has a shortage for programming talent and guys from China and India lead a lot of the breakthrough research at major companies 
Well, China and India contain over 1/3 of the world's population, so it makes sense that a lot of talent could be found there.

Quote:I wondered how someone from my tiny little island, that dosen't even show up on a map would have someone who ends up at Raytheon getting a patent for ground breaking OLED work, when there are hundreds of thousands of STEM graduates in the US.

Sounds like he/she is a smart, talented person. That doesn't mean that zero US STEM grads got patents. 

Quote:Whereas MOST people in the US treat learning like something secondary

I challenge you to substantiate that claim. Also, there IS more to life than learning. It's great that you're passionate about learning but that doesn't make you better than other people with different passions.

Quote:I attend Thomas Edison State, yet Nikola Tesla was the brains behind our modern world.
Not sure what point you're trying to make? Are you the next Nikola Tesla?

Quote:NASA landed men on the moon, yet it is taking Elon Musk to take men to Mars. 
I'm a fan of Elon Musk but he hasn't landed on Mars. Sure he has aspirations to but you can't give someone credit for something he hasn't done.





Maybe instead of worrying so much about what specific members of this board do and instead of pondering on your perceived inadequacies of Americans with CS degrees, you should just focus on yourself. Particularly, I recommend learning how to better communicate and be more amicable.

Quote:I think ignoring facts is more ignorant.

So you assume I'm ignorant? I didn't ignore anything.

I'm aware of the statistics you posted. There is an extremely high demand for certain talents, particularly in the CS field. The demand is higher than what the US colleges are supplying. It's not because Americans are dumb. Different people pursue different educational goals and careers. The US quite literally was built on immigration.

Anyways, good luck getting funding. I'm sure your people skills will take you far in that regard. I bet investors love giving money to condescending and presumptuous individuals.
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#5
Quote:You know I used to wonder why the US has a shortage for programming talent and guys from China and India lead a lot of the breakthrough research at major companies and universities and why US companies crave this talent yet people with CS degrees from US universities are unemployed in the US or seek employment in fields that have nothing to do with tech


absolutely none of that is true 

what US companeis crave is inexpensive labor

its pretty common for US companies to fire their US tech workers, but force them to train their H-1B replacements if they want a severance package

https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2016...lacements/#

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/la...ments.html

so US tech workers are more than capable 

its just foreigners are willing to work for less 

and companies are more than happy to save a few bucks 

in fact, its pretty much a well known joke in programming that if you want cheap you hire Indian programmers
but any money you save you'll end up spending by hiring American programmers to rewrite and fix all the bugs

Quote:How are more silicon valley workers are born outside the US than inside?

http://svcip.com/files/SVCIP_2017.pdf#page=4

cheap labor 

Quote:How is it in some STEM fields graduate students (90%) are not from the US?

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013...n-students

gee, all I got from that is that foreigners would rather come to the US and study rather than study in their own country 
I guess their own schools suck must suck
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#6
@NMoadic Not going to bother, don't have the energy, you're still not getting what I'm saying and I really don't like to argue, you sating "dosent mean zero", sigh and if you didn't get that bit about Edison having the school named after him and not Tesla, I really am not going to bother with the rest.

Well I guess all the studies I am reading is wrong. I read hundreds of articles of CS grads who can't code. So you are right it may be perceived, but I can only go on what I read, if the stats and media and industry recruiters with blog posts say that, then who am I to refute that? You have stats and reports to show otherwise?

Part of me reading here is learning for my own self, it is focusing on myself, I come here during my study breaks to see whats new and lend my $0.02.

You're making a general statement, I never said "Americans are inadequate" show me when I said that? I love your country and its people, a lot of great tech companies were started by Americans and I have great respect for those people, all my role models are currently Americans and companies I dream of working at are there. If I did not then I would not want to move there. I was just going with the stats I saw, if you see stats otherwise, then I would be happy to look at it. It's just based on what most people, companies, and studies are saying, CS grads aren't up to the level they should be.

Apple, Google, IBM etc stopped the CS degree requirement for many jobs and my guess is they recognize its passion and dedicating your life to what you love DOES make you better for a job than someone who does not have passion, even if they have a shiny CS degree.

I think I can communicate clearly, and I am friendly. Not because I have an opinion on something that is not the same as yours means I am amicable. I make friends everywhere I go and have friends in a lot of countries. I have even been insulted by one member here, and I never once attacked anyone.

Anyway back to studying for me.
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#7
Well that escalated quickly

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#8
Quote:Whereas MOST people in the US treat learning like something secondary, its all about passing that test huh?  and making the big bucks?

getting the CS degree because it "sounds good" to have? or it's "hot" right now?

If that's not "generalizing" then I guess I'm just ignorant.

Quote:@NMoadic Not going to bother, don't have the energy, you're still not getting what I'm saying and I really don't like to argue, you sating "dosent mean zero", sigh and if you didn't get that bit about Edison having the school named after him and not Tesla, I really am not going to bother with the rest.

I think you do like to argue.

I'm familiar with the "current wars" and the other rivalries between Tesla and Edison. You didn't explain it before and I didn't read your mind. 

Anyways, you're right about one thing; it's not worth wasting my time and energy arguing.
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#9
@bluebooger. Oh "absolutely none" is true. It is true, here is one article on such a study:

https://psmag.com/environment/immigrants...reat-75166

Where are your stats? Here is an excerpt:

"Last week, the National Science Foundation released its biannual report on the state of U.S. science, Science and Engineering Indicators 2014...The U.S. is the world's preeminent producer of scientific research: it funds the most research in academia and business, it publishes more science than any other nation, and its scientific papers are disproportionately among the world's best. So who is responsible for producing all of this science?

To a large degree, the answer is: immigrants. As the president of the National Academy of Engineering put it in a 2005 testimony to Congress, "we are more prosperous and more secure" thanks to the tens of thousands of foreign scientists who come to do research in the U.S."

Where is your support to say otherwise?

Haha so funny joke about the Indians! The patents and hiring practices would say otherwise though. What about the Chinese and Japanese? are they cheap and incompetent as well? And STEM is soooo much more than just programming, seriously. We are talking about STEM here.

No the schools don't suck, its just that innovation breeds innovation and the big tech companies are there, so you have a better chance at working on cool stuff where all the big companies are, and to get to work in those companies its easiest to study in the US as you can work for up to 2 years after your study. Way easier and more sure than the H1B that's basically a lottery process.
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#10
(12-14-2018, 11:31 AM)MNomadic Wrote:
Quote:Whereas MOST people in the US treat learning like something secondary, its all about passing that test huh?  and making the big bucks?

getting the CS degree because it "sounds good" to have? or it's "hot" right now?

If that's not "generalizing" then I guess I'm just ignorant.


You are I've read hundreds of Quora posts on the topic and thats the general consensus. Use Google and you'll find them.

@mednat, no need. My final post here on this topic.
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