@eLearner ..then your concern with my intent wouldn't line up with the history of what I've posted here.
I haven't researched your post history. Intent and behavior are not mutually exclusive though honest people often defend themselves when feeling aggrieved.
That is inaccurate.. You're using disqualifying words..
I disagree. I would, again, be interested in evidence of a licensed US physician who completed their medical education largely online. No snark intended here but I promise you I can't be bothered to sweat the minutiae of this conversation enough to split hairs about disqualification verbiage.
Yale's Medical school has an online PA program..
https://paonline.yale.edu/curriculum/ (TLDR: 16 months of in-person clinicals)
Doctoral medical education is "legitimate" where it is granted approval.. How you may feel about it is a separate matter.
It's more a reflection of reality. I'm still waiting for evidence of these physicians you keep mentioning. My feelings are of no consequence but the collective feelings of accreditation orgs are.
A negative feeling doesn't make it illegitimate.
Research and professional consensus do. I'd challenge you to write a letter to federal/state governments/societies/lobbying groups outlining your arguments for why largely online medical doctorate programs are effective.
Now, if the question becomes a matter of school quality..
Objective opinions can also be masked by the perception of statement verbiage on the part of the reader. Similarly, given your offense, I'll go ahead and assume you took my "..looks like a scam" beyond face value. I'm curious as to what research you did on the schools you posted - I mean, other than a quick scan of one or more pages.
Let's not forget that COVID.. their students online, so the positions that states like Indiana have against having...Doctor from licensure will now have to have an exception. The exception, regardless of the current circumstance causing it, will now call in to question why the rule exists at all.
Measures enacted during a pandemic versus shady international online medical schools..
I make no claims.. I've never attended those schools and have not read enough good or bad about them (and that wasn't through a lack of trying) to make a final judgement on that end, I pointed them out..
There it is. I'm glad you mentioned this. I made an ultra-concise warning that was seemingly taken offensively by you, hence our huge replies to one another. I'd still be open to seeing these reports or physicians you keep mentioning.
In truth however, neither of us knows..
The mistake here is what you think my intent is. My aforementioned warning is based on the knowledge and experience I've accumulated in the last two years of pre-medical school research and a career of professional investigation. I won't apologize for trying to save someone the heartache of massive debt and a medical career that's over before it begins. A quick web search will reveal these tales if you're interested. A distance learning component implies a part rather than a majority. The first 126 weeks of Oceania's program is virtual...
Well, post-COVID, you're going to have to go through an awful lot of trouble to avoid that since medical schools are teaching their students online now.
Medical schools teaching their students online is a temporary measure. Don't take my word for it.
You'll have to search.. Doctors who became licensed pre-COVID. At some point as you get older, that's going to get tricky and will likely .. where you won't have a choice. You'll also have to do a lot of avoiding with Nurses, too, since they now have online options across the country, some to even become RN's (and that's growing all the time).
I'm not sure what pre-COVID licensing has to do with anything, and again these online courses at medical schools (those not normally associated with an online curriculum) are a temporary measure. RN programs are affected the same way medical schools are and one can't do a virtual civilian-to-RN program. There will always be a huge piece that's clinical but RN's hands-on experience begins in the first year in most programs.
Besides all of that, I think the point you're overlooking is that no one... entirely online.
You've spent paragraphs defending online medical education. Referencing my Oceania fact a couple responses up, the first 2+ years are online. I'd also like to point out that only address the first half of the school. I can't even fathom what their clinicals must be like. If you can find a list of affiliated medical centers, that is.
That's never been possible and it never will be...
"Standards" are a matter of perspective. If you just found out you had cancer, would you be okay with your physician's online oncology education at Oceania or International whatever? Their clinicals at a run-down community hospital in the Philippines? The quality of education and training from one place to another isn't necessarily equal. What tests are being passed and what percentage of students are passing them? These statistics are normally out in the open at respectable institutions.
The only difference is that the 2 years of basic sciences are taught almost entirely online: IUHS, entirely. COMHSSL, partially. Oceania, partially.
See my above post on Oceania, or check this: https://oum.edu.ws/curriculum-overview-usa/
...Stanford medical students (and students from other medical schools) were known to rarely or never come to class and just listened to lectures at 2x (or higher) speeds during the 2 years of basic sciences, only to pass with flying colors and move on to rotations, do well there, and move on to licensure and residency.
This is a mischaracterization of what is happening. Students at many medical schools often skip classes they already have experience with to study for the USMLE Step 1, since historically Step 1 scores greatly affected residency selection. I'd like to see quantitative data on what percentage of students do this and "pass with flying colors." This is changing in 2022, given Step 1 was just made Pass/Fail. The total USMLE consists of multiple Steps.
True. It doesn't mean it's unwise either.
Depends on the outcome desired.
Except now California (and other states) will have no choice...
You keep presenting statements like this as if the COVID pandemic was some kind of medical education sea change. It isn't.
It will also be argued going forward that the rule is flawed...
Maybe it's flawed, maybe it isn't. Only time will tell. To call it flawed on the basis that two students, one with a wholly, or largely online years 1 and 2 versus a student with years 1 and 2 in the classroom because they have the same amount of clinical time is baffling to me. The same can be said for the quality and location of years 3 and 4.
Offline student: Rarely or never shows for class during basic sciences. Listens to lectures at 2x speed. Passes all exams.
This isn't a fact or the norm. I suspect your opinion is predicated upon a non-scientific article. Also, there's no clinical evidence that suggests less retention based on the speed at which something is listened to. I listen to things at 2x all the time. /shrug
Online student: Studies basic sciences online which may also include listening to lectures at 2x speed. Passes all exams.
Supposition is fine except when you're trying to present it as a reflection of reality without quantitative or even qualitative data. You've only qualified your arguments with vague statements about how graduates of these schools are working in the United States.
Vague? I don't think so. "Licensed Doctor" is self-explanatory.
"Licensed doctor" could be a DC, Ed.D, Ph.D, Psy.D or any number of other professionals eligible to use the title of "Doctor." I'm still waiting for evidence of one of these physicians in the States.
Well, my initial post was never about "proving" anything...
Yet you've made quite the effort in responding to me at length. While the initial post may not have been about proving anything, you certainly seem to be post-initial post. I offered that you might present evidence to quantify that which you defended.
That being said, the few Doctors that make it through to licensure..
Still waiting on where or who those few doctors might be.
"Feel" is part of the issue. You're taking a stance against a type of online education on a board dedicated to online education. That's like showing up to a 70's party and protesting against the fact that everyone is wearing bell bottoms.
You target the word "feel" but spend two long posts trying to validate/defend schools that by your own admission, you know nothing about. That's like eating the entire bag of chicken nuggets and then complaining they were terrible. My post is more like showing up to a party in the 70's and suggesting one stays away from Cambodia.
I haven't researched your post history. Intent and behavior are not mutually exclusive though honest people often defend themselves when feeling aggrieved.
That is inaccurate.. You're using disqualifying words..
I disagree. I would, again, be interested in evidence of a licensed US physician who completed their medical education largely online. No snark intended here but I promise you I can't be bothered to sweat the minutiae of this conversation enough to split hairs about disqualification verbiage.
Yale's Medical school has an online PA program..
https://paonline.yale.edu/curriculum/ (TLDR: 16 months of in-person clinicals)
Doctoral medical education is "legitimate" where it is granted approval.. How you may feel about it is a separate matter.
It's more a reflection of reality. I'm still waiting for evidence of these physicians you keep mentioning. My feelings are of no consequence but the collective feelings of accreditation orgs are.
A negative feeling doesn't make it illegitimate.
Research and professional consensus do. I'd challenge you to write a letter to federal/state governments/societies/lobbying groups outlining your arguments for why largely online medical doctorate programs are effective.
Now, if the question becomes a matter of school quality..
Objective opinions can also be masked by the perception of statement verbiage on the part of the reader. Similarly, given your offense, I'll go ahead and assume you took my "..looks like a scam" beyond face value. I'm curious as to what research you did on the schools you posted - I mean, other than a quick scan of one or more pages.
Let's not forget that COVID.. their students online, so the positions that states like Indiana have against having...Doctor from licensure will now have to have an exception. The exception, regardless of the current circumstance causing it, will now call in to question why the rule exists at all.
Measures enacted during a pandemic versus shady international online medical schools..
I make no claims.. I've never attended those schools and have not read enough good or bad about them (and that wasn't through a lack of trying) to make a final judgement on that end, I pointed them out..
There it is. I'm glad you mentioned this. I made an ultra-concise warning that was seemingly taken offensively by you, hence our huge replies to one another. I'd still be open to seeing these reports or physicians you keep mentioning.
In truth however, neither of us knows..
The mistake here is what you think my intent is. My aforementioned warning is based on the knowledge and experience I've accumulated in the last two years of pre-medical school research and a career of professional investigation. I won't apologize for trying to save someone the heartache of massive debt and a medical career that's over before it begins. A quick web search will reveal these tales if you're interested. A distance learning component implies a part rather than a majority. The first 126 weeks of Oceania's program is virtual...
Well, post-COVID, you're going to have to go through an awful lot of trouble to avoid that since medical schools are teaching their students online now.
Medical schools teaching their students online is a temporary measure. Don't take my word for it.
You'll have to search.. Doctors who became licensed pre-COVID. At some point as you get older, that's going to get tricky and will likely .. where you won't have a choice. You'll also have to do a lot of avoiding with Nurses, too, since they now have online options across the country, some to even become RN's (and that's growing all the time).
I'm not sure what pre-COVID licensing has to do with anything, and again these online courses at medical schools (those not normally associated with an online curriculum) are a temporary measure. RN programs are affected the same way medical schools are and one can't do a virtual civilian-to-RN program. There will always be a huge piece that's clinical but RN's hands-on experience begins in the first year in most programs.
Besides all of that, I think the point you're overlooking is that no one... entirely online.
You've spent paragraphs defending online medical education. Referencing my Oceania fact a couple responses up, the first 2+ years are online. I'd also like to point out that only address the first half of the school. I can't even fathom what their clinicals must be like. If you can find a list of affiliated medical centers, that is.
That's never been possible and it never will be...
"Standards" are a matter of perspective. If you just found out you had cancer, would you be okay with your physician's online oncology education at Oceania or International whatever? Their clinicals at a run-down community hospital in the Philippines? The quality of education and training from one place to another isn't necessarily equal. What tests are being passed and what percentage of students are passing them? These statistics are normally out in the open at respectable institutions.
The only difference is that the 2 years of basic sciences are taught almost entirely online: IUHS, entirely. COMHSSL, partially. Oceania, partially.
See my above post on Oceania, or check this: https://oum.edu.ws/curriculum-overview-usa/
...Stanford medical students (and students from other medical schools) were known to rarely or never come to class and just listened to lectures at 2x (or higher) speeds during the 2 years of basic sciences, only to pass with flying colors and move on to rotations, do well there, and move on to licensure and residency.
This is a mischaracterization of what is happening. Students at many medical schools often skip classes they already have experience with to study for the USMLE Step 1, since historically Step 1 scores greatly affected residency selection. I'd like to see quantitative data on what percentage of students do this and "pass with flying colors." This is changing in 2022, given Step 1 was just made Pass/Fail. The total USMLE consists of multiple Steps.
True. It doesn't mean it's unwise either.
Depends on the outcome desired.
Except now California (and other states) will have no choice...
You keep presenting statements like this as if the COVID pandemic was some kind of medical education sea change. It isn't.
It will also be argued going forward that the rule is flawed...
Maybe it's flawed, maybe it isn't. Only time will tell. To call it flawed on the basis that two students, one with a wholly, or largely online years 1 and 2 versus a student with years 1 and 2 in the classroom because they have the same amount of clinical time is baffling to me. The same can be said for the quality and location of years 3 and 4.
Offline student: Rarely or never shows for class during basic sciences. Listens to lectures at 2x speed. Passes all exams.
This isn't a fact or the norm. I suspect your opinion is predicated upon a non-scientific article. Also, there's no clinical evidence that suggests less retention based on the speed at which something is listened to. I listen to things at 2x all the time. /shrug
Online student: Studies basic sciences online which may also include listening to lectures at 2x speed. Passes all exams.
Supposition is fine except when you're trying to present it as a reflection of reality without quantitative or even qualitative data. You've only qualified your arguments with vague statements about how graduates of these schools are working in the United States.
Vague? I don't think so. "Licensed Doctor" is self-explanatory.
"Licensed doctor" could be a DC, Ed.D, Ph.D, Psy.D or any number of other professionals eligible to use the title of "Doctor." I'm still waiting for evidence of one of these physicians in the States.
Well, my initial post was never about "proving" anything...
Yet you've made quite the effort in responding to me at length. While the initial post may not have been about proving anything, you certainly seem to be post-initial post. I offered that you might present evidence to quantify that which you defended.
That being said, the few Doctors that make it through to licensure..
Still waiting on where or who those few doctors might be.
"Feel" is part of the issue. You're taking a stance against a type of online education on a board dedicated to online education. That's like showing up to a 70's party and protesting against the fact that everyone is wearing bell bottoms.
You target the word "feel" but spend two long posts trying to validate/defend schools that by your own admission, you know nothing about. That's like eating the entire bag of chicken nuggets and then complaining they were terrible. My post is more like showing up to a party in the 70's and suggesting one stays away from Cambodia.
Doctor of Medicine candidate (MD) - anticipated complete '24
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