A word of warning about test-out degrees.

[MISin08]

Hey Phoenix --

Good to hear from you and sorry you're having a rough ride. I think that the point you make about CLEP not giving students the chance to do outside projects that boost the resume is a good one. I'm not sure how much resume-boosting one would get from lower-level courses, though it's certainly a consideration with upper-level. Think for example about taking a report-writing class where you can say "I worked with a team to write a business case with financials; we got a lot of positive feedback from our client and earned an A" vs taking the Technical Writing DSST. If you're new to the workplace or trying to move up that could be important. If like me you've written business cases and it's more about getting better at them, exams are fine.

I was also on the fence about taking the Finance DSST vs. a class and now believe that it would have been good for me if I had found the right class. I've pretty much ruled out a MBA, so I wont be studying it again, and I would have benefited from a bit more exposure than I got from my exam prep.

I started with the BA in 4 weeks model in mind (though my goal was to do it within one year), and later decided that I wanted something with a little more distinction than a general business degree. This led to a MIS concentration and taking some classes instead testing out of all possible credits. Now, however, I can say my formal education backs up my experience in a concrete way and I have a couple of school accomplishments I can talk about that I had no way to do on the job. I also feel a lot better prepared for grad school. The down side is that I should change my screen name to "MISin10" :ack:

Still, I agree with the others that how you position yourself is crucial, since IIRC you have experience. Good luck!

Phillip

[JanusthePhoenix]

Just wanted to clarify...I am not blaming my current job search woes on my degree. Not at all. I agree with a previous poster, lack of relevant experience and proven ability to make/save money is definitely my biggest hurdle right now, since these are what is valued most in employees currently.

I have many things working against me, like the lack of experience mentioned above. Besides that, because of my attempt at career transitioning, my resume looks very strange to employers. I've gone from a relatively high paying and highly technical job to a 'lowly' and lower paying call center position, and then to nothing 4 months later (I quit because I hated it more than unemployment). Then add the business degree with no focus from a college in NY, when I grew up in CA and currently reside in ID...it all makes for a very "WTF" reaction in employers. Moreover, I'm not keeping it a secret that I won't be around in less than a year. Government jobs are out, because many of them take like 3 months to even get an interview. Now add the prejudices I listed in my previous post... it goes on and on. In a pool of hundreds of well qualified applicants, I'm giving them a ton of reasons to just skip right over me. I know it sounds like I'm being overly negative, but I'm really just being realistic. Despite all my strengths and capabilities, my resume can be construed as shady, and thus is since they are actively looking for reasons to ignore my applications, and my skill set and plans just don't fit in with most employers needs. The Red Cross won't even respond to my application to work for free. That is the reality, unfair as it may be.

I'm going to continue to look, of course. I have no worries about financial survival. I'm just starting to go a little stir crazy not being at work or school. :willynilly:

[PsychTestOut]

I think it's good that you brought up some potential negatives for people to look at as they plan for further education or career ops. For example, while researching the type of grad school I wanted to go to I discovered I would need to have a lot of experience actually working in a lab and even publications under my belt in order to be competitive - not something I could get through TESC alone. So, I went about securing a volunteer position that would net me this; however, it certainly wasn't easy. So, people should plan ahead and know what experiences they need besides the degree for their grad school or career plans.

[taylor]

In today's market, you pretty much need two things to get a good job:

1) Experience
2) A degree

This may not be the case for certain fields, but for the most part, it's true. I'm in sales, which in the past hasn't always required a degree. It still doesn't require the degree, but you need a ton of good experience (and LOTS of networking) to get your resume past the recruiter. In many companies, even if your experience is awesome, your resume is not ever sent to the hiring manager because you're screened out.

I would imagine that the point that the author of this post was trying to make is not to expect every job you want to be yours simply because you have a degree. A degree with no experience will land you an entry-level job. But once you work your way up, you hopefully will be able to apply for more jobs that require the piece of paper.

I agree, this has been my experience too. I think experience and a degree go hand in hand in this job market. I'm in sales too, and I know I couldn't have gotten this job without a degree, even though I had a lot of sales experience previously being self employed. Even though my job can be considered entry level by some since it's not a manager position, the pay is not entry level and I get the weekends off which I can't complain about in this economy.

[cookderosa]

It's been about 6 months since I completed my BS in General Business from Excelsior. It took me almost exactly a year from start to finish. You can see the breakdown of the credits in my sig.

I want to provide my real world experience so far, so that I can maybe help some of you avoid the disillusionment that might come afterward. My advice to those seeking a fast, test-credit degree like mine is to be absolutely sure what you are getting it for. Here are some legitimate reasons to get a non-specific, nontraditional degree like mine:

1) You cannot move up in your job without that piece of paper, regardless of where it's from or what it says.
2) You want to take it to the military and be an officer.
3) You need it as a pre-requisite for a professional degree.

I can't think of any others. Mine was reason number 3. I'm about to apply to University of Idaho Law School for fall 2011. (Plan all the way to the end so you don't miss deadlines!!) Reason number 2 was my plan B.

Allow me to share some things about employers these days that I have discovered firsthand. First, they don't need to hire people. It is a ludicrously one-sided job market right now, and they only want to hire people better than they already have. That means requirements for entry level positions are mind-numbingly demanding. The potential of a job seeker means nothing. They only care about what they have proven already. That means if you're fresh out of college and haven't had experience in your chosen field already, you're going to be screened out immediately by the people who busted their butts with internships or journals or projects, things that are largely unavailable to us as CLEP takers. In my case, I don't even have a chosen field. Employers see my degree and see not only a lack of experience, but potential headiness without anything to offset it. At worst, they see a person who doesn't know or care what he wants to be doing and is just taking what he can get. Not attractive to employers at all. In a real sense, my degree is hurting my resume right now. I knew it wasn't going to help me a whole bunch when I was working on it, but I never thought for a second it would actually damage my chances of landing a job.

Luckily for me, I only have to stay afloat for another 10 months or so before I can finally start setting my career path straight, so my degree is still going to serve its intended purpose. Still, I still allowed myself to hope that it would be of more use on its own, and I was very much let down.

The moral of this story is don't expect too much from something that costs so little (relatively) of your time and money. If you want your bachelors to stand on its own, CLEP away the fluff first and finish up the rest in a more traditional collegiate environment with all the trimmings that can get you the specialized training, education, internships, work studies, connections, and opportunities to prove yourself concretely. You're going to need it. And figure out what you want to do with it before you pick your major! When I was in the Navy, they always told me "Choose your rate, choose your fate." This advice was far more profound than I had ever known.

Again, I'm posting this as a warning to those who aren't looking where they're leaping. Good luck to all of you.

*bold mine
What you say is true, but not true too. It is ALWAYS the dilemma of the new college grad. They won't hire you without experience, but how do you get experience without being hired? Linda answers this well. But, to link this to CLEP? I think you are very mistaken. CLEP is a means of earning credit, how you build your resume is up to you. How many hours per week do you volunteer? Did you start a small business in your free time? Are you a leader *or member* in any local organizations? (Junior Achievement, Future Business Leaders, etc) Have you considered shadowing at SCORE meetings, or polishing your public speaking through Toastmasters? Are you involved on any of your city's committees for change? Political/govt. volunteer? Think business things. Do something entrepreneurial. SHOW your acumen.

I'm not downing you, I'm showing you. People DO stuff like that, and that pushes their resume to the top of the pile. My education is 2 lines on my resume, an afterthought. How you earned your credit is irrelevant- in fact, that shouldn't be on your resume anywhere, and as far as I can tell, is something only YOU know unless you share.

[Maniac Craniac]

It is ALWAYS the dilemma of the new college grad. They won't hire you without experience, but how do you get experience without being hired?

I had this exact problem, until I gained a skill and improved to the point where I qualified to enter a field that is in high-demand. Even with no degree, EVERYONE either strongly desired, or was at least willing to hire me.

If there is anything I can suggest to everyone is to find some skill that very few people are able to master. The kind of field where "just anyone" or even "decent" most certainly isn't good enough. I wouldn't suggest this to everyone, however, distance learning forums are jam-packed with people who buckle down to do their work, are self-motivated and self-directed, I would suggest it to all of you. Do something that makes people go "OOOooOOhh!!!" Like... oh, I don't know, learn a language from scratch and become an interpreter

[jackzack87]

Originally Posted by JanusthePhoenix
It's been about 6 months since I completed my BS in General Business from Excelsior. It took me almost exactly a year from start to finish. You can see the breakdown of the credits in my sig.

I want to provide my real world experience so far, so that I can maybe help some of you avoid the disillusionment that might come afterward. My advice to those seeking a fast, test-credit degree like mine is to be absolutely sure what you are getting it for. Here are some legitimate reasons to get a non-specific, nontraditional degree like mine:

1) You cannot move up in your job without that piece of paper, regardless of where it's from or what it says.
2) You want to take it to the military and be an officer.
3) You need it as a pre-requisite for a professional degree.

[SIZE="3"]I see your perspective, but it's sounds to me like you're in a tough economic time like many of us, and your degree isn't paying the dividends to meet your rightful expectation. However, I would advocate that my time in this nontrad college setting - (CLEPS/DSST, Online) has allowed me to live a normal working life, has taken(will take) only 2.5 years instead of 4, and I've been able to move around, find what I like to do and gain that coveted experience because 1) I am online, which means flexible and able to relocate for work 2) I don't have the financial burdens of A) not working because I'm in school and B) my schooling is costing me total what a private school would charge for 1 year.
So - even if we end up as non trads without a plan and a bleak job market - is it not the same boat of a "normal" student with 10-60K of DEBT and a bleak job market?

The reverse of that quote "look before you leap" is "he who hesitates is lost forever". Pick your proverb.

[/SIZE]

[burbuja0512]

How many hours per week do you volunteer? Did you start a small business in your free time? Are you a leader *or member* in any local organizations? (Junior Achievement, Future Business Leaders, etc) Have you considered shadowing at SCORE meetings, or polishing your public speaking through Toastmasters? Are you involved on any of your city's committees for change? Political/govt. volunteer? Think business things. Do something entrepreneurial. SHOW your acumen.

I'm not downing you, I'm showing you. People DO stuff like that, and that pushes their resume to the top of the pile. My education is 2 lines on my resume, an afterthought. How you earned your credit is irrelevant- in fact, that shouldn't be on your resume anywhere, and as far as I can tell, is something only YOU know unless you share.

Volunteering is a great point. Where do you want to work? If they won't hire you, would they accept an unpaid intern?

I'm in medical sales and had no medical experience. I couldn't get past a certain level in my career, so I took a pharmacy tech course and started volunteering at a local hospital pharmacy. It was a humbling experience and I still go there every Friday night and will be through June 2011, which is the time that I have committed to. I am free labor and it's not all that glamourous, but I will tell you that it is on my resume and helped me land a new job with a 20k per year raise.

It's hard to get a good job and gain experience in today's market with so many people out of work, but you can do it if you're creative. I honestly believe that EVERYONE here on these forums is capable of "thinking outside the box" and succeeding wildly. How many other people out there are smart enough to test out of most or all of their degree? It's just not done. I don't even tell people what I'm doing because the few people I've mentioned it to don't really believe me.

NETWORK NETWORK NETWORK. Are you on LinkedIn? Is your resume one of hundreds, or do you KNOW the hiring manager? As OP mentioned, going to community/industry events is a great idea. When you apply for a job, what do you do to get past the recruiter? Call up the company and ask to speak to someone in the department that you're applying in. If you can manage to get to a hiring manager yourself, you've already proven that you're tenacious and hard-working. Your experience might not be as good as the other candidates, but you've shown that you're willing to make up for it in effort.

What does your resume look like? You may not have 800 bucks to pay someone to professionally write it, but ask several friends that you trust (READ friends that have jobs that you want) to read your resume and give you honest feedback. Do you know anyone that hires people? Even a manager friend that happens to look at resumes on a regular basis can help you improve and get noticed.

If all this sounds like a TON of work, it is, but it will really work if you do it. It's not easy and you have to have thick skin. Not everyone that you network with will hire you. But do try to learn from each experience. If you land an interview and don't get hired, ask for honest feedback. It might hurt to know where you goofed, but if you're tough enough to hear about it, you'll avoid making the same mistake again.

[grauwulf]

In today's market, you pretty much need two things to get a good job:

1) Experience
2) A degree

....

I would like to add "tenacity". You need to keep at it.

YMMV every job field is different and needs to be looked at for the unique snowflake that it is.

That being said, at least in the IT world I've actually been seeing a trend away from "degree required" job listings and a LOT of "or comparable experience". While there are certainly tonnes of companies out there who sort the stack and only look at the paper-qualifications, many seem to be opening their eyes.

This is just a guess, but I would guess that many small to mid sized companies that used to use outside HR firms for hiring are now doing it in house. In house where the folks looking at the resumes have a vested interested in getting good people, not just good resumes. HR departments/agencies tend to look at a CV and a Job listing and just run down the check list: x years experience, check. y time in grade, check. no degree, trash. Again it's just a guess, but I think if you focus more on the 100-500 employee, medium sized business, you will be better traction.

-- HR Horror/Comedy Story --
In 2004 I had been developing Java for about 2-3 years. I was freshly certified and freshly laid-off (company moved). One job listing looked good but the requirements were just silly so I sent in my resume. A week or so later I followed up and was told that I "simply wasn't qualified. go out and get some experience, preferably experience that involves being able to 'read the requirements' and then try again. This position REQUIRES a Java developer with 15 years experience, maybe you should be looking for something more entry-level." I was flabbergasted! Java had (at that time) only been in existence for 8 years!

pffft. Vogons. :-D

[Chebasaz]

Lol at the HR Story... So very true and is a horrible fact of life that hiring managers must put up with. It depresses me to think of how many resumes of perfectly acceptable candidates are wasted.

Janus - What's the background? You mentioned technical jobs and then call center?