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Anyone Else Getting Sick of This COVID Crap?
#11
(07-05-2020, 07:31 PM)Library2HospitalChaplain Wrote: Thank you, @Merlin. Note my handle, please. You did a good job of explaining.

I'm heading back to my studies and remote counseling for those who have no other person to talk to in this medical emergency right now. :-(

Thanks. I'm just trying to keep things real.

I have close family and friends who work in healthcare and are on the front lines of this pandemic. I also volunteer with a disaster relief organization and get to chat with a lot of well-informed people. Plus I like to research, so I read a lot of medical articles and journals to try and stay informed.

My motto is always: "when in doubt, follow the science." Smile

(07-05-2020, 08:32 PM)ajs1976a Wrote: Sick of both sides turning this into a political issue and the media blowing things out of proportion.

I agree there. I try to avoid politics whenever I can so it annoys me when what should be nonpolitical topics suddenly become partisan political issues. This ends up drowning out the signal with a bunch of unnecessary noise. But considering how impactful this pandemic is on society it cannot really be helped.
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#12
(07-05-2020, 09:27 PM)Merlin Wrote: My motto is always: "when in doubt, follow the science." Smile

Unfortunately, "the science" consists of many who don't necessarily agree with each other.  We were told not to wear masks, because "science" said they didn't work.  Now, we're all supposed to wear masks all the time.

There are other things that are inconsistent - like the ability to get herd immunity, if enough of the young healthy people get it, and protect more people.  But they aren't letting that happen.

I also question a shutdown of the economy for something that scientifically isn't killing most people.  The percentage is SO low, especially those under 45.  I think most governors went WAY overboard in their handling of this, and listened to doctors and scientists more than economists, which was not a great idea; they also didn't seem to listen to those who said that a lockdown was a bad idea for many for different reasons having to do with mental health.  So many people are suffering under the lockdowns, maybe more than will get sick.  I'm thinking kids from low-income households who missed many months of school and may not catch up to grade level for many months or even years to come.  Or people who are living in abusive households who are stuck with abusers 24/7.  Elderly people in nursing homes who are dying of loneliness because their families can't visit.  People who weren't able to see their doctors for many months even though they needed it.  People who couldn't get diagnosed with a disease for many months who may die because of it.  I personally have diabetes, and my doctor doesn't want me in a lab to get my bloodwork done, even though I normally go every 4 months without fail.

And when people say "follow the science" I have a hard time with that.  It usually comes from the same people who say that conservatives are morons who don't know what "science" is yet insist that babies are "a clump of cells."  I don't want to get into that topic, just pointing out that it's all very politicized, and people claim "science" as being on their side when they want it to be, and ignore what they don't want to hear when it's inconvenient.
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#13
(07-05-2020, 11:54 PM)dfrecore Wrote: Unfortunately, "the science" consists of many who don't necessarily agree with each other.  We were told not to wear masks, because "science" said they didn't work.  Now, we're all supposed to wear masks all the time.

There are a lot of reasons for this but most of them are political. The US simply didn't have the masks (nobody did) and there was concern that recommending masks would mean that healthcare workers wouldn't have masks. Countries that got around this issue by recommending homemade masks have had low numbers of infected people. Countries that persisted in "leave the masks to healthcare workers" have had much higher numbers of infected. If homemade masks had been recommended, it's possible that the healthcare workers wouldn't have run out of masks either because they wouldn't have needed that many.

Quote:There are other things that are inconsistent - like the ability to get herd immunity, if enough of the young healthy people get it, and protect more people.  But they aren't letting that happen.

I also question a shutdown of the economy for something that scientifically isn't killing most people.  The percentage is SO low, especially those under 45.  I think most governors went WAY overboard in their handling of this, and listened to doctors and scientists more than economists, which was not a great idea; they also didn't seem to listen to those who said that a lockdown was a bad idea for many for different reasons having to do with mental health. 

Even if it doesn't kill you, the long term effects of this are promising to be horrific. There are "asymptomatic" people who have lungs that look like swiss cheese. We don't yet know what the full effects of this disease will be but it's not pretty. A German scuba magazine is telling people not to go diving unless they are able to get a full physical to look at their lungs because you might think you're fine but the dive could kill you. There is a higher instance than usual of Kawasaki disease among children (at least in certain areas); I don't fully understand Kawasaki disease but it can be serious if not treated.

Quote:And when people say "follow the science" I have a hard time with that.  It usually comes from the same people who say that conservatives are morons who don't know what "science" is yet insist that babies are "a clump of cells."  I don't want to get into that topic, just pointing out that it's all very politicized, and people claim "science" as being on their side when they want it to be, and ignore what they don't want to hear when it's inconvenient.

I've been following this pretty much since the illness was first made public back in January. Back when most of the world was looking on reporting of coronavirus as being nothing more than fearmongering. The unfortunate reality is that scientists have to pander to politicians for funding (this being an election year makes things so much worse in many ways). As a result, there has been a lot of bad science being published out there, even by otherwise-reputable scientists, so that they can continue to work. I can think of no better example of this than the CDC website itself. Even as the CDC was pushing the "homemade masks don't work" agenda, you could go onto the CDC website and find instructions for creating your own N95-equivalent mask out of a cut-up t-shirt. This article, from 2006, does say that it isn't a good substitute for a true N95 mask but that it can potentially work as a substitute in places where N95 masks are currently unavailable. https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/12/6/05-1468_article
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#14
(07-05-2020, 11:54 PM)dfrecore Wrote:
(07-05-2020, 09:27 PM)Merlin Wrote: My motto is always: "when in doubt, follow the science." Smile

Unfortunately, "the science" consists of many who don't necessarily agree with each other.  We were told not to wear masks, because "science" said they didn't work.  Now, we're all supposed to wear masks all the time.

When it comes to covid, I don't listen to anyone in politics or anything in the mass media. I speak with people I know who medical experts and are dealing with this every day. I read medical journals and listen to what the epidemiologists and virologists say. I don't see much inconsistency in the approach to take. There have been some inconsistencies in the US response, but those seem mostly politically driven. Look at the world response and watch the countries that are making headway and follow their lead. That is what I suggest.

(07-05-2020, 11:54 PM)dfrecore Wrote: There are other things that are inconsistent - like the ability to get herd immunity, if enough of the young healthy people get it, and protect more people.  But they aren't letting that happen.

There is still no evidence that herd immunity is even possible without a vaccine. Research is still ongoing but it sounds like there is no long term immunity after exposure. Short term yes, but it appears to fade after 2-3 months. But we need a lot more sample data to really know for sure. Even if it is possible, we need so many more people to be exposed to make this happen that we'd be looking at over 500,000 people dead in the US, and it will take like 18 months to get there. There is an article from Johns Hopkins medical that discusses that in depth that I posted here a month or two ago. I don't recall the link at the moment.

(07-05-2020, 11:54 PM)dfrecore Wrote: I also question a shutdown of the economy for something that scientifically isn't killing most people.

The economics aspect of this is hard. But if we could all drop the politics and agree to wear masks and do everything we can to avoid spreading this faster while we wait for a vaccine, we could reopen like some of the other countries are doing. But we don't have enough people who are willing to make that sacrifice to reopen faster. As it is now it seems like people have stopped caring about masks when things reopen and causing major spikes. We also know that infection rates are underreported since somewhere around 50% of the people who catch the virus appear to be asymptomatic and we only test people who are symptomatic and have symptoms bad enough to require a doctor or ER visit.

(07-05-2020, 11:54 PM)dfrecore Wrote: And when people say "follow the science" I have a hard time with that.  It usually comes from the same people who say that conservatives are morons who don't know what "science" is yet insist that babies are "a clump of cells."  I don't want to get into that topic, just pointing out that it's all very politicized, and people claim "science" as being on their side when they want it to be, and ignore what they don't want to hear when it's inconvenient.

I am not really political but I consider myself a fiscal conservative and I believe in science. I'm more of a centrist overall. But I am also a realist and I understand that people only see what they want to see and ignore everything else. I do my own research (well I try to find peer-reviewed articles and first-person sources) rather than listen to what others want me to believe based on their own political agenda.
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#15
(07-05-2020, 09:27 PM)Merlin Wrote:
(07-05-2020, 07:31 PM)Library2HospitalChaplain Wrote: Thank you, @Merlin. Note my handle, please. You did a good job of explaining.

I'm heading back to my studies and remote counseling for those who have no other person to talk to in this medical emergency right now. :-(

Thanks. I'm just trying to keep things real.

I have close family and friends who work in healthcare and are on the front lines of this pandemic. I also volunteer with a disaster relief organization and get to chat with a lot of well-informed people. Plus I like to research, so I read a lot of medical articles and journals to try and stay informed.

My motto is always: "when in doubt, follow the science." Smile

(07-05-2020, 08:32 PM)ajs1976a Wrote: Sick of both sides turning this into a political issue and the media blowing things out of proportion.

I agree there. I try to avoid politics whenever I can so it annoys me when what should be nonpolitical topics suddenly become partisan political issues. This ends up drowning out the signal with a bunch of unnecessary noise. But considering how impactful this pandemic is on society it cannot really be helped.
My understanding is that Canada's success is that they didn't politicize this. Everyone wore masks, and although the Conservatives (don't know their party name) are not in power, they were supportive of the actions taken my Trudeau's government.

Science doesn't belong to one or the other political persuasion. It's just what folks who are well versed in a subject have determined to be accurate explanation for things. Further information might overturn those determinations, but I'll go with the experts until new information comes to light.

The most frightening thing about COVID-19? (Besides possibly losing immunity after getting the disease.) Is all we DON'T know about it. It might not even have come out of China in the first place. 

As for the masks, I think part of the reason they're helpful is that they stop us from touching two of the three entry points for the disease - mouth and nose, not eyes. Not a scientist (and I'm SLOGGING through Sophia's Stats course), but it makes sense to me that this diminishes the possibility that I'll touch something with the virus, and then touch an entry-point for the disease.

And am I sick of the restraints? Even as someone who is fairly anti-social, I'm getting a bit antsy. And restrictions on travelling? That's distressing.

Then I think about dying in a hospital room on a ventilator. Or being one of the lucky ones who has a mild case - but then has terrible post-disease issues.

This almost makes me think of Startrek Next Generation and the Borg. What we learn about this disease is almost like the Borg and its ability to rapidly change based upon new information. But, dammit, resistance is NOT futile! I will NOT lower my shield and surrender my ship. I may go down fighting (wearing a mask), but I will be fighting.
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#16
https://www.khq.com/news/khq-investigate...54032.html

Wear a mask. There shouldn't be anything political or controversial about it.

And yes, there have been conflicting guidance about how to best protect ourselves and each other from this but I think it's like any new scientific discovery, we don't know until we know. All we can do is operate with the knowledge we have at the moment while preparing ourselves for new knowledge that may require a behavior change.

This is the basic tenant of the scientific method, is it not? To not be satisfied with our current knowledge but to continue to ask questions that lead to answers that lead to more questions that lead to answers?

I believe that the USA's disregard for science (if you can question evolution you can question everything) has lead us down a dangerous path of distrust towards the scientific method.
I was homeschooled and raised to believe in the creation myth instead of evolution and this led to a complete distrust of scientists, if they had the basic building blocks wrong they must have everything wrong.
It took me years of questioning in my 20's to start deprogramming and it was a journey of loss and discovery that most are unwilling to make, for good reason. I had to come to terms with the idea that the belief structure that was the foundation of me was, at best, severely lacking scientific updates or, at worst, a fairy tale. On the journey I lost my friends, most of my family, and my faith but I found the scientific method and I found peace in knowing it's ok to change based on the answers you uncover.

We don't know all the answers, yet. We only know the questions we've thought to ask. There will be more questions, with more answers, that will require behavior changes. Americans will find this extraordinarily difficult and we will continue to discount the death toll, the ability we had to nip it in the bud like the rest of the world did, and the scientists working to protect us. I don't know what final reckoning will look like for the USA but the data trends are not hopeful.

TLDR: Like density of mass creates gravity, we know that pants block pee and masks block spit so wear a dang mask.
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#17
(07-06-2020, 10:37 AM)inkleind Wrote: https://www.khq.com/news/khq-investigate...54032.html

Useful video. I like that the doctor conducted a live experiment to demonstrate the effects of wearing a mask (or not) and physically distancing.

If anyone questions the science, they can just watch that video or do their own experiments to see how masks and physical distancing can help reduce the risk of exposure.
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#18
Any thoughts on pool testing? This is what they did in Wuhan recently to test over 10 million people in short period of time.
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#19
I am so thankful that we have Gov. Gretchen Whitmer in Michigan. She basically followed Gov. DeWine from Ohio step for step in the shutdown process and then kept things shut for a couple of weeks longer than most other states. The result has been that we went from top 5 in terms of cases and deaths to a very manageable level through this summer. This has allowed my family to take counterintuitive family summer trips. We went for five days to Alpena, MI on Lake Huron and we will leave tomorrow for a trip largely focused on the UP of Michigan. We are getting some good summer experiences and rest which I feel will be important because I think this is going to blow up in the fall and winter. We need the downtime now and Gov. Whitmer got us that downtime.

She has also been remarkable in knowing exactly the lines she should not cross. During the shutdown, she allowed religious exemptions and that was absolutely the correct political move because it made the shutdown politically sustainable. She also released a back to school plan that requires masks for all school staff and HS/MS students, but gives flexibility in terms of social distancing and doesn't require temp. checks for entry. I think that this is a really nice balance that will allow the mask rules to be enforced rigorously.

She has just been the best.
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#20
(07-07-2020, 03:17 PM)eriehiker Wrote: I am so thankful that we have Gov. Gretchen Whitmer in Michigan.  She basically followed Gov. DeWine from Ohio step for step in the shutdown process and then kept things shut for a couple of weeks longer than most other states.  The result has been that we went from top 5 in terms of cases and deaths to a very manageable level through this summer.  This has allowed my family to take counterintuitive family summer trips.  We went for five days to Alpena, MI on Lake Huron and we will leave tomorrow for a trip largely focused on the UP of Michigan.  We are getting some good summer experiences and rest which I feel will be important because I think this is going to blow up in the fall and winter.  We need the downtime now and Gov. Whitmer got us that downtime.

She has also been remarkable in knowing exactly the lines she should not cross.  During the shutdown, she allowed religious exemptions and that was absolutely the correct political move because it made the shutdown politically sustainable.  She also released a back to school plan that requires masks for all school staff and HS/MS students, but gives flexibility in terms of social distancing and doesn't require temp. checks for entry.  I think that this is a really nice balance that will allow the mask rules to be enforced rigorously.

She has just been the best.

But you know she has a lot of people who don't like her. She is all over the news and of course there were protesters against her.

I guess that is how it is being in the public eye. For every fan, you've got a hater as well. 

My Dad keeps saying "I wouldn't want to be president, governor or in charge of anything right now"

Like hypothetically a leader could do everything 100% perfectly and they would still get criticism. Plus there is the fact that there is soooo much unknown. So obviously it makes sense that people would skeptical of certain regulations and if they would actually help prevent the virus or make a difference. And the thing is even the people in charge aren't completely certain, and every single politician is working on at least some degree of speculation because humans are not all knowing creatures.
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