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#21
(05-30-2018, 07:22 PM)sanantona Wrote: Until very recently, polls have shown that most black people support the police. There hasn't been an increase in violence; there has just been an increase in smartphones and social media usage bringing to the forefront what black people have been dealing with since slavery was abolished. Still, I'm not afraid of Black Lives Matter shooting me. Those who study homeland security see most of the domestic threats coming from right wing groups the past few years. Neither superficial support nor vocal opposition of the police are more of a concern to me than people who actively challenge the police and train to "fight" the government.

Again, there is no factual basis for the idea that blacks are subject to a higher rate of police violence than whites. The data I have seen shows that the rate of police violence is actually slightly lower when you adjust for the number of police interactions. If you have seen data that I haven't, feel free to post it. From my perspective, the hype around this issue is caused by the media blowing every incident of police violence against blacks out of proportion. This is the case even when the police officers and their chain of command are all black.

You're about 20 years too late if you think that right wing groups are a threat to the government. Even back then, it was blown out of proportion to justify budget increases for various agencies.


Many cities have cut police and firefighter benefits; it's a trend that started during the Great Recession.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-p...2120120730

The pension issue is happening across every industry. The fundamental problem is that these systems were developed during the mid-20th century when everyone thought the economy and population would continue to grow forever. The models are simply unsustainable.

Most right wingers in the South don't blame slavery for slow economic development; they blame Lincoln and Reconstruction. Many historians place the blame on Andrew Johnson.

I'm not sure why Johnson would bear the brunt of the blame. Slavery was indisputably an economic drain on the South. It inhibited mechanization, industrialization, and urbanization.

I never said that the social sciences are devoid of science; I said that humanities courses are. Humanities and social science are not the same thing. The humanities aren't supposed to be scientific. I am a social scientist (and a graduate student in a microbiology/biochemistry program), so I'm used to listening to people criticize something they know little about. The social and natural sciences mostly use the same research methods. As a matter of fact, wildlife biology and the study of animal behavior is not much different from sociology. Physical anthropology is basically biology with a focus on the human body. Psychologists often study psychopharmacology and neuroscience and tend to be good statisticians.

I was speaking specifically of the departments that focus on unfalsifiable nonsense like systemic racism and the narrative that Western Civilization is a uniquely oppressive system set up by white men to keep everyone else down. This narrative and its derivative ideologies are spreading throughout the social sciences, humanities, and literature. The obsessive drive to prove  this narrative is one of the reasons the social sciences are experiencing the replication crisis.
#22
(05-30-2018, 08:39 PM)alexf.1990 Wrote:
(05-30-2018, 07:22 PM)sanantona Wrote: Until very recently, polls have shown that most black people support the police. There hasn't been an increase in violence; there has just been an increase in smartphones and social media usage bringing to the forefront what black people have been dealing with since slavery was abolished. Still, I'm not afraid of Black Lives Matter shooting me. Those who study homeland security see most of the domestic threats coming from right wing groups the past few years. Neither superficial support nor vocal opposition of the police are more of a concern to me than people who actively challenge the police and train to "fight" the government.

Again, there is no factual basis for the idea that blacks are subject to a higher rate of police violence than whites. The data I have seen shows that the rate of police violence is actually slightly lower when you adjust for the number of police interactions. If you have seen data that I haven't, feel free to post it. From my perspective, the hype around this issue is caused by the media blowing every incident of police violence against blacks out of proportion. This is the case even when the police officers and their chain of command are all black.

You're about 20 years too late if you think that right wing groups are a threat to the government. Even back then, it was blown out of proportion to justify budget increases for various agencies.


Many cities have cut police and firefighter benefits; it's a trend that started during the Great Recession.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-p...2120120730

The pension issue is happening across every industry. The fundamental problem is that these systems were developed during the mid-20th century when everyone thought the economy and population would continue to grow forever. The models are simply unsustainable.

Most right wingers in the South don't blame slavery for slow economic development; they blame Lincoln and Reconstruction. Many historians place the blame on Andrew Johnson.

I'm not sure why Johnson would bear the brunt of the blame. Slavery was indisputably an economic drain on the South. It inhibited mechanization, industrialization, and urbanization.

I never said that the social sciences are devoid of science; I said that humanities courses are. Humanities and social science are not the same thing. The humanities aren't supposed to be scientific. I am a social scientist (and a graduate student in a microbiology/biochemistry program), so I'm used to listening to people criticize something they know little about. The social and natural sciences mostly use the same research methods. As a matter of fact, wildlife biology and the study of animal behavior is not much different from sociology. Physical anthropology is basically biology with a focus on the human body. Psychologists often study psychopharmacology and neuroscience and tend to be good statisticians.

I was speaking specifically of the departments that focus on unfalsifiable nonsense like systemic racism and the narrative that Western Civilization is a uniquely oppressive system set up by white men to keep everyone else down. This narrative and its derivative ideologies are spreading throughout the social sciences, humanities, and literature. The obsessive drive to prove  this narrative is one of the reasons the social sciences are experiencing the replication crisis.

You didn't read what I said. I didn't say that black people face more police violence. Besides, counting the incidents of use of force isn't enough data. You would have to dig into police reports and investigation findings to find out which uses of force were justified. 

There have been many studies/investigations, however, that have found evidence of racial profiling i.e. New Jersey Turnpike, Ferguson PD ticketing minorities more often for monetary gain, the Texas Department of Public Safety; and NYPD supervisors threatening officers to stop and frisk black and Latino men (this policy found very few illegal firearms).

Johnson is blamed because he took retaliatory actions against the South. Lincoln's plan was to rebuild, but Johnson sought to punish. 

Well, there is a history of systemic racism in the U.S. It's not like Jim Crow, redlining, Black Codes, and justifying slavery by preaching that Africans are sub-human didn't happen. And, it wasn't just the KKK that lynched people. Police departments in Texas were actively involved in lynching, and thousands of Mexicans were lynched after the Texas Revolution. Businesses would even put up signs during the Jim Crow era saying that Mexicans weren't welcomed. 

A Republican politician admitted a couple of years ago that voter ID laws are designed to decrease minority voter turnout. A person who worked in the Reagan administration admitted that talking about things such as "states rights" was a dog whistle to racist, white voters in the South. This comes from southern states arguing that the federal government did not have the right to come into their states and defend people's constitutional rights. It's a known fact now that the war on drugs was started to target black people and "hippies." Look at how this country responded to the crack epidemic, that mostly affected black people, to how it is now responding to the opioid epidemic that is mostly affecting white people. This year, a record number of white nationalists are running for office, and the growth in white supremacist groups since 2016 has been substantial. There has also been an increase in racial crimes against minorities. 

I've talked about this study quite a bit, but if employers can tell that you are African American by the name on your resume, you will have a lower chance of getting a callback.  

Right wing extremists are not a threat to the government; they're too stupid to accomplish anything of significance. They're a danger when it comes to encounters with authority figures.
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#23
(06-01-2018, 08:00 PM)sanantone Wrote: You didn't read what I said. I didn't say that black people face more police violence. Besides, counting the incidents of use of force isn't enough data. You would have to dig into police reports and investigation findings to find out which uses of force were justified. 

There have been many studies/investigations, however, that have found evidence of racial profiling i.e. New Jersey Turnpike, Ferguson PD ticketing minorities more often for monetary gain, the Texas Department of Public Safety; and NYPD supervisors threatening officers to stop and frisk black and Latino men (this policy found very few illegal firearms).

In post #20 on this thread, you said, "there has just been an increase in smartphones and social media usage bringing to the forefront what black people have been dealing with since slavery was abolished." The implication is quite clear. You believe, like the talking heads on TV, that blacks face more police violence than whites. I'm not sure the continuing this narrative of black people always being the victim of an oppressive white society is the best way to build up the black community. These media-driven narratives just fuel racial resentment and perpetuate this idea of an external locus of control, neither of which actually benefits blacks. A good model for building successful communities is among can easily be found among the Chinese, Indians, or Jews, all which have thrived in the face of "white oppression."
#24
(06-01-2018, 08:29 PM)alexf.1990 Wrote:
(06-01-2018, 08:00 PM)sanantone Wrote: You didn't read what I said. I didn't say that black people face more police violence. Besides, counting the incidents of use of force isn't enough data. You would have to dig into police reports and investigation findings to find out which uses of force were justified. 

There have been many studies/investigations, however, that have found evidence of racial profiling i.e. New Jersey Turnpike, Ferguson PD ticketing minorities more often for monetary gain, the Texas Department of Public Safety; and NYPD supervisors threatening officers to stop and frisk black and Latino men (this policy found very few illegal firearms).

In post #20 on this thread, you said, "there has just been an increase in smartphones and social media usage bringing to the forefront what black people have been dealing with since slavery was abolished." The implication is quite clear. You believe, like the talking heads on TV, that blacks face more police violence than whites. I'm not sure the continuing this narrative of black people always being the victim of an oppressive white society is the best way to build up the black community. These media-driven narratives just fuel racial resentment and perpetuate this idea of an external locus of control, neither of which actually benefits blacks. A good model for building successful communities is among can easily be found among the Chinese, Indians, or Jews, all which have thrived in the face of "white oppression."

Smartphones and social media don't just spread videos of police violence. Most of the recent incidents are about racial profiling. Don't tell me what I believe. And, I am not the media. I've read dozens of studies because I'm in a criminal justice PhD program. I've been working in the criminal justice field for over a decade. I was privy to some of the conversations police officers had and the stupid calls from the public. 

Ironically, when you said "external locus of control," you used a term that comes out of psychology. Why are you using "pseudoscience" to make your point? And, people can have an internal locus of control and acknowledge reality. I came from a poor family and moved myself out of poverty. That doesn't change the fact that store employees have followed me around in the store for no reason, people have called the police on me for no reason, that I had to earn a graduate degree and move to another city just to get past name discrimination, and that people called me the n-word when I was growing up. I simply work harder because I know I have to work harder.

You talk about the morale of police officers being affected by the left's denigration. You think that telling black people for hundreds of years that they are inferior had no effect? In my face, in the 21st century, I had a white person tell me that black people are intellectually inferior. Today, I watched a news clip online with this white nationalist telling a black journalist, who graduated from Harvard, that black people are inferior. But, I guess only police officers are affected by words, huh? I can tell you that I'd much rather have people attack the job I chose to do than my existence as a human being.
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#25
(06-01-2018, 09:15 PM)sanantone Wrote: Smartphones and social media don't just spread videos of police violence. Most of the recent incidents are about racial profiling. Don't tell me what I believe. And, I am not the media. I've read dozens of studies because I'm in a criminal justice PhD program. I've been working in the criminal justice field for over a decade. I was privy to some of the conversations police officers had and the stupid calls from the public. 

I'm just responding to what you posted. If you don't believe that blacks aren't subject to a higher rate of police violence than whites, then we're in agreement. Racial profiling is a different issue entirely.

Ironically, when you said "external locus of control," you used a term that comes out of psychology. Why are you using "pseudoscience" to make your point? And, people can have an internal locus of control and acknowledge reality. I came from a poor family and moved myself out of poverty. That doesn't change the fact that store employees have followed me around in the store for no reason, people have called the police on me for no reason, that I had to earn a graduate degree and move to another city just to get past name discrimination, and that people called me the n-word when I was growing up. I simply work harder because I know I have to work harder.

I never painted the entire field of psychology as a pseudoscience. There is certainly merit in some of the work that is done. I'm glad that you rose above your surroundings. I've been followed around stores, and recently had the police called on me for sitting in a Walmart parking lot while eating my dinner. It's not discernible how much of your experience is based on race and how much is based on the decline in social trust in this country.

You talk about the morale of police officers being affected by the left's denigration. You think that telling black people for hundreds of years that they are inferior had no effect? In my face, in the 21st century, I had a white person tell me that black people are intellectually inferior. Today, I watched a news clip online with this white nationalist telling a black journalist, who graduated from Harvard, that black people are inferior. But, I guess only police officers are affected by words, huh? I can tell you that I'd much rather have people attack the job I chose to do than my existence as a human being.

Chinese people were bared from entering the country or becoming citizens until the 1930s. They now have a higher average income and lower cirme rate than whites. Jews and Indians are similarly situated. Clearly, there is a pathway for minority communities to rise up in this country. Moaning about oppression doesn't seem to be working for the black communities, perhaps its time to try something new.
#26
(06-02-2018, 01:05 AM)alexf.1990 Wrote:
(06-01-2018, 09:15 PM)sanantone Wrote: Smartphones and social media don't just spread videos of police violence. Most of the recent incidents are about racial profiling. Don't tell me what I believe. And, I am not the media. I've read dozens of studies because I'm in a criminal justice PhD program. I've been working in the criminal justice field for over a decade. I was privy to some of the conversations police officers had and the stupid calls from the public. 

I'm just responding to what you posted. If you don't believe that blacks aren't subject to a higher rate of police violence than whites, then we're in agreement. Racial profiling is a different issue entirely.

Ironically, when you said "external locus of control," you used a term that comes out of psychology. Why are you using "pseudoscience" to make your point? And, people can have an internal locus of control and acknowledge reality. I came from a poor family and moved myself out of poverty. That doesn't change the fact that store employees have followed me around in the store for no reason, people have called the police on me for no reason, that I had to earn a graduate degree and move to another city just to get past name discrimination, and that people called me the n-word when I was growing up. I simply work harder because I know I have to work harder.

I never painted the entire field of psychology as a pseudoscience. There is certainly merit in some of the work that is done. I'm glad that you rose above your surroundings. I've been followed around stores, and recently had the police called on me for sitting in a Walmart parking lot while eating my dinner. It's not discernible how much of your experience is based on race and how much is based on the decline in social trust in this country.

You talk about the morale of police officers being affected by the left's denigration. You think that telling black people for hundreds of years that they are inferior had no effect? In my face, in the 21st century, I had a white person tell me that black people are intellectually inferior. Today, I watched a news clip online with this white nationalist telling a black journalist, who graduated from Harvard, that black people are inferior. But, I guess only police officers are affected by words, huh? I can tell you that I'd much rather have people attack the job I chose to do than my existence as a human being.

Chinese people were bared from entering the country or becoming citizens until the 1930s. They now have a higher average income and lower cirme rate than whites. Jews and Indians are similarly situated. Clearly, there is a pathway for minority communities to rise up in this country. Moaning about oppression doesn't seem to be working for the black communities, perhaps its time to try something new.

When someone says that they are suspicious of the person because they're black, they're making it pretty clear why they're calling. That's a real call, by the way. Police officers will even tell you that they get tired of taking suspicious person calls that are made against black people for no reason. It's a waste of their time. The sheriff's department I worked for was certainly sick of it. Apparently, my former employer isn't the only LE agency that has experienced this.

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/5/...bq-oakland

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk...ac80eeec86

Are you comparing being barred from a country to forcibly taking people to another land, keeping them against their will, and affording them lower levels of rights than even immigrants had? Are you really comparing beatings, church bombings, and lynchings to not allowing people to come to a country? Are you talking about Indians or American Indians? Native Americans are doing terribly. Their suicide and alcoholism rates are high. Sexual assault, poor health, and poverty are huge issues on reservations.   

You sure do like to deny other people's experiences. You're so arrogant that you don't care to listen to other people's realities. You're not black, and you think you know more than a black person does on how it is to be black. You're also attempting to belittle the knowledge of someone who has studied this field for years by comparing her to TV personalities. It's like a patient trying to tell a doctor how to perform open heart surgery. It's astounding. Who are you, and what qualifies you as an expert in being black or in CJ in general?
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#27
(06-02-2018, 02:46 AM)sanantone Wrote: When someone says that they are suspicious of the person because they're black, they're making it pretty clear why they're calling. That's a real call, by the way. Police officers will even tell you that they get tired of taking suspicious person calls that are made against black people for no reason. It's a waste of their time. The sheriff's department I worked for was certainly sick of it. Apparently, my former employer isn't the only LE agency that has experienced this.

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/5/...bq-oakland

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk...ac80eeec86

Yes, this happens sometimes, but its silly to pretend this only happens to blacks. I had three cop cars surround me in the Walmart parking lot while I was sitting in a Lexus. All because I was playing on my phone while eating dinner. Nosey people calling the cops isn't unique to black people, nor is it clear how much higher of a rate blacks are the subject of such calls.

Are you comparing being barred from a country to forcibly taking people to another land, keeping them against their will, and affording them lower levels of rights than even immigrants had? Are you really comparing beatings, church bombings, and lynchings to not allowing people to come to a country? Are you talking about Indians or American Indians? Native Americans are doing terribly. Their suicide and alcoholism rates are high. Sexual assault, poor health, and poverty are huge issues on reservations.   

Being completely barred from a country, and prevented from accessing the economic infrastructure of a country is comparable to what blacks have experienced. The KKK was just as aggressive towards Jews as it was towards blacks. Again, Indians, Jews, and Asians have gone from being completely ostracized to being more successful than whites. Their model of success seems to be better than the current model of victimization perpetuated by black communities.

You sure do like to deny other people's experiences. You're so arrogant that you don't care to listen to other people's realities. You're not black, and you think you know more than a black person does on how it is to be black. You're also attempting to belittle the knowledge of someone who has studied this field for years by comparing her to TV personalities. It's like a patient trying to tell a doctor how to perform open heart surgery. It's astounding. Who are you, and what qualifies you as an expert in being black or in CJ in general?

I'm not a lion either, but that doesn't prevent me from learning about and understanding lions. Use objective facts and articulable arguments rather than anecdotes and feelings. The real arrogance is continuing to support a model that has failed for the last century.
#28
The Chinese had their own country, and Jewish people are white.

What are you even talking about with the suspicious calls? There are silly suspicious calls and there are racist ones. If the caller is emphasizing the person's race, then the caller is likely racist. If people are calling the cops on people just because they're black, then it is a problem specific to black people. 

What facts have you presented? You haven't presented any independent sources. You haven't referenced any specific studies. You assume you know why the black community has issues. All you have is a hypothesis.

You came in here talking about feelings...police officers' feelings. You just throw out all kinds of beliefs that aren't based on anything but your own feelings. They aren't based on research or real life experience. Maybe you should have been a philosophy major, but philosophy requires more logic.

You haven't really studied this topic. Stop acting like you have. Denial is a tactic used by racists and hate groups. They deny the Holocaust, and they try to paint a pretty picture of slavery.
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#29
(06-02-2018, 03:43 AM)sanantone Wrote: The Chinese had their own country, and Jewish people are white.

What facts have you presented? You haven't presented any independent sources. You haven't referenced any specific studies. You assume you know why the black community has issues. All you have is a hypothesis.

You came in here talking about feelings...police officers' feelings. You just throw out all kinds of beliefs that aren't based on anything but your own feelings. They aren't based on research or real life experience. Maybe you should have been a philosophy major, but philosophy requires more logic.

You haven't really studied this topic. Stop acting like you have.

What is the point of this discussion anymore? You refuse to support your original argument that blacks are subject to higher rates of police violence, or "systemic racism." You also think I'm unqualified to talk about the topic because of my race, even though you have no idea what race I am. You're an ideologue masquerading as an intellectual. You're the problem with the intelligentsia and academia.
#30
(06-02-2018, 03:54 AM)alexf.1990 Wrote:
(06-02-2018, 03:43 AM)sanantone Wrote: The Chinese had their own country, and Jewish people are white.

What facts have you presented? You haven't presented any independent sources. You haven't referenced any specific studies. You assume you know why the black community has issues. All you have is a hypothesis.

You came in here talking about feelings...police officers' feelings. You just throw out all kinds of beliefs that aren't based on anything but your own feelings. They aren't based on research or real life experience. Maybe you should have been a philosophy major, but philosophy requires more logic.

You haven't really studied this topic. Stop acting like you have.

What is the point of this discussion anymore? You refuse to support your original argument that blacks are subject to higher rates of police violence, or "systemic racism." You also think I'm unqualified to talk about the topic because of my race, even though you have no idea what race I am. You're an ideologue masquerading as an intellectual. You're the problem with the intelligentsia and academia.

Um, that was not my original argument. If you can't do the basic task of reading, then you have no credibility. 

I was able to name specific studies and historical events. You have absolutely nothing but your own thoughts. There are plenty of non- black people who know what's going on with the black community because they've actually taken the time to do the research; you clearly haven't.

You're what's wrong with this country. You're an anti-intellectual, you're intellectually lazy, and you're intellectually dishonest. You don't care to listen to actual black people. You're dismissive because you don't care. You think you know better without having any experience as a black person or a researcher.
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