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The most Military/Veteran friendly College Commencements!
#31
(06-02-2018, 04:09 AM)sanantone Wrote:
(06-02-2018, 03:54 AM)alexf.1990 Wrote:
(06-02-2018, 03:43 AM)sanantone Wrote: The Chinese had their own country, and Jewish people are white.

What facts have you presented? You haven't presented any independent sources. You haven't referenced any specific studies. You assume you know why the black community has issues. All you have is a hypothesis.

You came in here talking about feelings...police officers' feelings. You just throw out all kinds of beliefs that aren't based on anything but your own feelings. They aren't based on research or real life experience. Maybe you should have been a philosophy major, but philosophy requires more logic.

You haven't really studied this topic. Stop acting like you have.

What is the point of this discussion anymore? You refuse to support your original argument that blacks are subject to higher rates of police violence, or "systemic racism." You also think I'm unqualified to talk about the topic because of my race, even though you have no idea what race I am. You're an ideologue masquerading as an intellectual. You're the problem with the intelligentsia and academia.

Um, that was not my original argument. If you can't do the basic task of reading, then you have no credibility. 

I've quoted your original claim above. Feel free to tell me how I was wrong.

I was able to name specific studies. You have absolutely nothing but your own thoughts. There are plenty of non- black people who know what's going on with the black community because they've actually taken the time to do the research; you clearly haven't.

You pasted a link to Vox and Huffington Post... The vast majority of your argument has been anecdotes about your personal life as though your experience is indicative of conditions for blacks as a whole. Your personal experience, just like my race, isn't relevant to the conversation at all.
#32
(06-02-2018, 04:15 AM)alexf.1990 Wrote:
(06-02-2018, 04:09 AM)sanantone Wrote:
(06-02-2018, 03:54 AM)alexf.1990 Wrote:
(06-02-2018, 03:43 AM)sanantone Wrote: The Chinese had their own country, and Jewish people are white.

What facts have you presented? You haven't presented any independent sources. You haven't referenced any specific studies. You assume you know why the black community has issues. All you have is a hypothesis.

You came in here talking about feelings...police officers' feelings. You just throw out all kinds of beliefs that aren't based on anything but your own feelings. They aren't based on research or real life experience. Maybe you should have been a philosophy major, but philosophy requires more logic.

You haven't really studied this topic. Stop acting like you have.

What is the point of this discussion anymore? You refuse to support your original argument that blacks are subject to higher rates of police violence, or "systemic racism." You also think I'm unqualified to talk about the topic because of my race, even though you have no idea what race I am. You're an ideologue masquerading as an intellectual. You're the problem with the intelligentsia and academia.

Um, that was not my original argument. If you can't do the basic task of reading, then you have no credibility. 

I've quoted your original claim above. Feel free to tell me how I was wrong.

I was able to name specific studies. You have absolutely nothing but your own thoughts. There are plenty of non- black people who know what's going on with the black community because they've actually taken the time to do the research; you clearly haven't.

You pasted a link to Vox and Huffington Post... The vast majority of your argument has been anecdotes about your personal life as though your experience is indicative of conditions for blacks as a whole. Your personal experience, just like my race, isn't relevant to the conversation at all.

I don't see the quote. 

I mentioned well-known studies in the CJ field. If you knew what you were talking about, you would have easily recognized those studies.

Anecdotal experience. Right.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/3421/racial-...k-men.aspx
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#33
(06-02-2018, 04:18 AM)sanantone Wrote: I don't see the quote. 

I mentioned well-known studies in the CJ field. If you knew what you were talking about, you would have easily recognized those studies.

Anecdotal experience. Right.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/3421/racial-...k-men.aspx
Here is your original claim from post #20:

"There hasn't been an increase in violence; there has just been an increase in smartphones and social media usage bringing to the forefront what black people have been dealing with since slavery was abolished."

That poll doesn't back up your argument at all. Only 40% of black Americans feel they've been stopped because of their race. Of those, a majority report being stopped fewer than 5 times. 69% of black Americans report that they are treated favorably by police, compared to 86% of white Americans. There is a difference in how these populations feel they are being treated, but the difference isn't at all as significant as you suggest. It's certainly not the experience of most black Americans.

You've repeatedly talked about your education in CJ, but I don't think it's having the effect that you want it to have. Education, like intelligence and wealth, is something that should be demonstrated. Use your education to convince me of your point, don't brag about it.
#34
(06-02-2018, 05:06 AM)alexf.1990 Wrote:
(06-02-2018, 04:18 AM)sanantone Wrote: I don't see the quote. 

I mentioned well-known studies in the CJ field. If you knew what you were talking about, you would have easily recognized those studies.

Anecdotal experience. Right.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/3421/racial-...k-men.aspx
Here is your original claim from post #20:

"There hasn't been an increase in violence; there has just been an increase in smartphones and social media usage bringing to the forefront what black people have been dealing with since slavery was abolished."

That poll doesn't back up your argument at all. Only 40% of black Americans feel they've been stopped because of their race. Of those, a majority report being stopped fewer than 5 times. 69% of black Americans report that they are treated favorably by police, compared to 86% of white Americans. There is a difference in how these populations feel they are being treated, but the difference isn't at all as significant as you suggest. It's certainly not the experience of most black Americans.

You've repeatedly talked about your education in CJ, but I don't think it's having the effect that you want it to have. Education, like intelligence and wealth, is something that should be demonstrated. Use your education to convince me of your point, don't brag about it.


That quote does not say that black people face more police violence. Where is the reading comprehension?

You have a short memory, but I said earlier that polls have shown that most black people support the police. You were complaining about how the left, especially black people, hurt the morale of the police.

42% of black people felt that they were stopped because of their race. Only 6% of white people felt that they were stopped because of their race. In what world is that not a huge difference? And, how is 42% a small share? 

Oh, only 42% of the population died from tuberculosis. Only 42% of the population has a drug addiction. Only 42% of people face domestic violence. No one would say those things.

You've said some outrageous and ridiculous things. The worst is was comparing immigration quotas to slavery and Jim Crow. You can't be taken seriously.
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#35
(06-02-2018, 12:15 PM)sanantona Wrote: That quote does not say that black people face more police violence. Where is the reading comprehension?

Are you being intentionally obtuse? Surely, you see how that quotes implies that black people face a higher rate of police violence. Please explain to me what you meant by this:  "There hasn't been an increase in violence; there has just been an increase in smartphones and social media usage bringing to the forefront what black people have been dealing with since slavery was abolished." How could that be construed in any way other than "smartphones are illuminated the increased rate of police brutality black people have suffered since abolition."

You have a short memory, but I said earlier that polls have shown that most black people support the police. You were complaining about how the left, especially black people, hurt the morale of the police.

We left that subject long ago. We've spent the last few days trying to figure out what the above quote meant. The poll is a bit absurd anyway. In which academic realm would it be acceptable to use a poll from 19 years as evidence of attitudes towards cops today?


42% of black people felt that they were stopped because of their race. Only 6% of white people felt that they were stopped because of their race. In what world is that not a huge difference? And, how is 42% a small share? 

A majority of blacks have never FELT that they were being pulled over for being black. Only 15% of blacks report being stopped by police more than 5 times. Your "experience" isn't representative of the typical experience of blacks in America.


Oh, only 42% of the population died from tuberculosis. Only 42% of the population has a drug addiction. Only 42% of people face domestic violence. No one would say those things.

You've said some outrageous and ridiculous things. The worst is was comparing immigration quotas to slavery and Jim Crow. You can't be taken seriously.

You're comparing a traffic stop to domestic violence, drug, addiction, and tuberculosis; then you claim I'm the one making outrageous statements. Absolutely stunning.

You're arguing in bad faith. The discrimination faced by Jews, Indians, and Chinese was just as severe as that faced by blacks.  Instead of perpetuating this victim mentality, we should probably take some time to find out why the successful groups were successful. That seems like a much more fruitful pursuit than chasing an unfalsifiable claim of white privilege.
#36
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#37
(06-02-2018, 03:16 PM)alexf.1990 Wrote:
(06-02-2018, 12:15 PM)sanantona Wrote: That quote does not say that black people face more police violence. Where is the reading comprehension?

Are you being intentionally obtuse? Surely, you see how that quotes implies that black people face a higher rate of police violence. Please explain to me what you meant by this:  "There hasn't been an increase in violence; there has just been an increase in smartphones and social media usage bringing to the forefront what black people have been dealing with since slavery was abolished." How could that be construed in any way other than "smartphones are illuminated the increased rate of police brutality black people have suffered since abolition."

You have a short memory, but I said earlier that polls have shown that most black people support the police. You were complaining about how the left, especially black people, hurt the morale of the police.

We left that subject long ago. We've spent the last few days trying to figure out what the above quote meant. The poll is a bit absurd anyway. In which academic realm would it be acceptable to use a poll from 19 years as evidence of attitudes towards cops today?


42% of black people felt that they were stopped because of their race. Only 6% of white people felt that they were stopped because of their race. In what world is that not a huge difference? And, how is 42% a small share? 

A majority of blacks have never FELT that they were being pulled over for being black. Only 15% of blacks report being stopped by police more than 5 times. Your "experience" isn't representative of the typical experience of blacks in America.


Oh, only 42% of the population died from tuberculosis. Only 42% of the population has a drug addiction. Only 42% of people face domestic violence. No one would say those things.

You've said some outrageous and ridiculous things. The worst is was comparing immigration quotas to slavery and Jim Crow. You can't be taken seriously.

You're comparing a traffic stop to domestic violence, drug, addiction, and tuberculosis; then you claim I'm the one making outrageous statements. Absolutely stunning.

You're arguing in bad faith. The discrimination faced by Jews, Indians, and Chinese was just as severe as that faced by blacks.  Instead of perpetuating this victim mentality, we should probably take some time to find out why the successful groups were successful. That seems like a much more fruitful pursuit than chasing an unfalsifiable claim of white privilege.

The quote specifically said that there hasn't been an increased rate. The quote said that the videos illuminate what black people have been going through since abolition, which includes more than just physical violence. That is separate from the fact that black people are killed disproportionately by the police, but like I said earlier, we don't know which uses of force were justified.

If you think that quote is comparing the rate of police violence before and after slavery, which it's not, then of course there was more after slavery. How often would slaves interact with the police on a plantation? Most towns didn't even have a police department in the 1800s.

We currently have a travel ban from certain Muslim countries, and our president wants to limit immigration from sh*thole countries. Do you really think today is as bad as the early 1900s were for black people? That is preposterous.

Additionally, most black people in that poll believed that discrimination was widespread. That poll isn't even specifically about black people supporting the police, so I don't even know what you're talking about there. There are plenty of more recent polls on police support, but there has been a change in recent years, which I already noted. Black people mainly differ on how the police should be held accountable and their experiences with the police.

I never said that racial profiling is as bad as having a deadly disease. Statisticians just wouldn't consider 42% to be an insignificant number. 42% of Americans not having health insurance would be seen as bad. 42% of Americans having been incarcerated at one point in their lives would be seen as bad. 42% of Americans belonging to hate groups would be seen as bad. A 42% high school dropout rate is bad. A 42% obesity rate is bad. A 42% unemployment rate is awful. 42% of anything that's negative is a cause for concern. The disparities in sentencing between crack (mostly affected black people) and powder cocaine were seen as a huge negative even though most black people haven't gone to prison for anything.

You think that racial profiling has no effect on people? In Texas, for example, it was found that black people in certain towns had their possessions seized more often even when they were not charged with a crime. There is also something called the compounded effect, which is believed to be the reason why black people are more likely to be convicted of marijuana possession even though white and black people use at the same rate. More stops means more charges. Prosecutors favoring plea deals for some groups over others leads to higher rates of incarceration for some groups than others. Higher conviction and incarceration rates for some groups leads to higher conviction rates and tougher sentences on subsequent offenses due to an existing criminal history.

Why do you keep focusing on "more than 5 times?" I haven't been stopped by the police more than five times, but I've still had the police called on me because of my race.

Scientists, not forum philosophers with unsupported hypotheses, have found many reasons for failures in the black community. Anyone who knows basic history knows that the black experience is unique. No other group was enslaved in large numbers in the U.S. for hundreds of years. The U.S., like many countries, have a racial hierarchy system that puts black people at the bottom. Black people also far outnumbered any other non-white group for most of U.S. history. You're comparing black people to people who make up a very small percentage of the American population.

Poor nutrition in early childhood leads to lower IQ and difficulties in performing well in school. Single-parent homes have more difficulties. The percentage of single-parent homes in the black community has risen, but it was always significantly higher than what was seen among white people. The history of separating fathers from their families goes back to slavery. Also, after slavery was abolished, black men were incarcerated at disproportionate rates because of Black Codes. Prisoners and sharecroppers were used as replacements for slaves. And, unlike the Japanese and even some Jews who survived the Holocaust, black people received no reparations.

Black students perform more poorly in segregated schools. Many black people still live in poor areas where there is lead in the homes, which leads to learning difficulties. Redlining led to black people being stuck in economically depressed neighborhoods. Black boys are put in special ed at higher rates. Since there is this big gap between black boys and black girls, then researchers have to look at sociological reasons rather than genetics.

In the 1980s, the U.S. government turned a blind eye to the Nicaraguans bringing in crack-cocaine to urban neighborhoods because it funded the American-backed group in Nicaragua. This is documented fact and relatively recent history. Today, the U.S. is using the treatment approach for the opioid epidemic and is even going after drug companies. The response to the crack epidemic was mass incarceration. Incarceration skyrocketed in the 1990s. As someone who works with parolees, it is extremely difficult to get a good job once you have a felony on your record.

Since you think that only majorities matter, what makes you think that black people are doing so bad? Only 22% of black people fell under the poverty line in 2016. For reasonable people, that isn't ideal, but for you, that's a very small number. Most working-age black people are employed. Most black people are not incarcerated. Black women go to college at a very high rate. Most black people do not have a drug problem. According to your reasoning, black people have no problem.
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#38
(06-07-2018, 07:35 AM)sanantone Wrote: The quote specifically said that there hasn't been an increased rate. The quote said that the videos illuminate what black people have been going through since abolition, which includes more than just physical violence. That is separate from the fact that black people are killed disproportionately by the police, but like I said earlier, we don't know which uses of force were justified.

How can you make the claim that black people are disproportionately subject to police violence while simultaneously claiming that we can't tell which use of force is justified? Every source you've listed adjusts the number of black deaths for the total population. This skews the data because, as I'm sure you know, black people have more encounters with police. As a criminal justice grad student, can you explain why they would do this? The only explanation I can see is that they are intentionally trying to skew the data.


We currently have a travel ban from certain Muslim countries, and our president wants to limit immigration from sh*thole countries. Do you really think today is as bad as the early 1900s were for black people? That is preposterous.

We have a travel ban from countries whose governments can't verify the identity of their citizens. Obama's Justice Department was the one who identified the countries 7 countries on Trumps list all the way back in 2015. As for the shithole comment, I've never understand the argument against that comment. The people coming from those countries are literally arguing that those countries are so unstable and dangerous that its unsafe for them to return. Either they are shitholes, or the people coming here are lying to get refugee status.

Additionally, most black people in that poll believed that discrimination was widespread. That poll isn't even specifically about black people supporting the police, so I don't even know what you're talking about there. There are plenty of more recent polls on police support, but there has been a change in recent years, which I already noted. Black people mainly differ on how the police should be held accountable and their experiences with the police.

It's your poll... You introduced it as evidence. I think its a bit silly to talk about that poll anyway, it's two decades old.

I never said that racial profiling is as bad as having a deadly disease. Statisticians just wouldn't consider 42% to be an insignificant number. 42% of Americans not having health insurance would be seen as bad. 42% of Americans having been incarcerated at one point in their lives would be seen as bad. 42% of Americans belonging to hate groups would be seen as bad. A 42% high school dropout rate is bad. A 42% obesity rate is bad. A 42% unemployment rate is awful. 42% of anything that's negative is a cause for concern. The disparities in sentencing between crack (mostly affected black people) and powder cocaine were seen as a huge negative even though most black people haven't gone to prison for anything.

I don't think you understand what "significance" means in the field of statistics. Statisticians don't determine causality nor do they make moral judgments about the results of their data. A significance test determines whether the data supports or rejects their null hypothesis. It's a bit troubling that you're claiming to be an academic and you don't understand the very basic tools of your trade.

You think that racial profiling has no effect on people? In Texas, for example, it was found that black people in certain towns had their possessions seized more often even when they were not charged with a crime. There is also something called the compounded effect, which is believed to be the reason why black people are more likely to be convicted of marijuana possession even though white and black people use at the same rate. More stops means more charges. Prosecutors favoring plea deals for some groups over others leads to higher rates of incarceration for some groups than others. Higher conviction and incarceration rates for some groups leads to higher conviction rates and tougher sentences on subsequent offenses due to an existing criminal history.

Most people who are arrested for marijuana are arrested for dealing it. Usage rates aren't relevant to this at all.

Why do you keep focusing on "more than 5 times?" I haven't been stopped by the police more than five times, but I've still had the police called on me because of my race.

The 5x is a measure of the intensity of racial profiling. You're claiming that black people are oppressed by racial profiling, and the data doesn't seem to bear that out.

Scientists, not forum philosophers with unsupported hypotheses, have found many reasons for failures in the black community. Anyone who knows basic history knows that the black experience is unique. No other group was enslaved in large numbers in the U.S. for hundreds of years. The U.S., like many countries, have a racial hierarchy system that puts black people at the bottom. Black people also far outnumbered any other non-white group for most of U.S. history. You're comparing black people to people who make up a very small percentage of the American population.

The history of black people in the US isn't unique. Every country had a class system as recently as the 20th century. The vast majority of Eastern Europeans were still slaves long after black Americans received their freedom. Black people also weren't slaves here for "hundreds of years." It wasn't until the cotton gin was popularized in the 1810s that African slaves were brought here in significant numbers. Even then, only 300,000 (roughly 4% of all transatlantic slaves) were brought here. The vast majority of African slavery existed between 1810 and 1860.

Poor nutrition in early childhood leads to lower IQ and difficulties in performing well in school. Single-parent homes have more difficulties. The percentage of single-parent homes in the black community has risen, but it was always significantly higher than what was seen among white people. The history of separating fathers from their families goes back to slavery. Also, after slavery was abolished, black men were incarcerated at disproportionate rates because of Black Codes. Prisoners and sharecroppers were used as replacements for slaves. And, unlike the Japanese and even some Jews who survived the Holocaust, black people received no reparations.

The Japanese, nor the Jews, nor the Chinese received reparations. 90% of the Jews came from the turn of the 20th century when Russia began purging them. I agree the single family homes is a problem, its a real problem, a problem that can actually be grasped and tackled. 75% of black children are born into unwed homes. More focus needs to be put on this problem, but its not even mentioned in the media. We'll never be able to focus on this problem as long as we're focused on the victim narrative.

Black students perform more poorly in segregated schools. Many black people still live in poor areas where there is lead in the homes, which leads to learning difficulties. Redlining led to black people being stuck in economically depressed neighborhoods. Black boys are put in special ed at higher rates. Since there is this big gap between black boys and black girls, then researchers have to look at sociological reasons rather than genetics.

There is a big gap between all boys and all girls. It's not limited to black people. This gap is increasing as we speak. Lead hasn't been a real problem in decades. They stopped putting lead in paint in 1978. Maybe lead pipes are an issue in isolated areas, but its not a country-wide problem.

In the 1980s, the U.S. government turned a blind eye to the Nicaraguans bringing in crack-cocaine to urban neighborhoods because it funded the American-backed group in Nicaragua. This is documented fact and relatively recent history. Today, the U.S. is using the treatment approach for the opioid epidemic and is even going after drug companies. The response to the crack epidemic was mass incarceration. Incarceration skyrocketed in the 1990s. As someone who works with parolees, it is extremely difficult to get a good job once you have a felony on your record.

The US government has been running drugs for decades. It's not limited to black communities. The opioid epidemic took off under the watchful eye of the FDA and the DEA. The companies that manufacture the drugs have been caught sending millions of pills to small pharmacies that are obviously part of drug running operations.

The disparity between crack and cocaine is another false narrative. The drugs are completely different in addictiveness and side effects. Black neighborhoods were being ravaged by crack in the 1980s. In fact, it was these troubled neighborhoods that were pleading for the dealers to be locked up and order brought back to the streets. I remember DC back then, it looked like a warzone. A better analogy is crack and methamphetamine. The destruction brought by both drugs is comparable, and they were both treated equally by the US Sentencing Commission. Meth is historically a white drug, and crack a black. The harsh sentences wasn't a racial issue, it was a result of the sheer devastation crack, and then meth, brought onto communities that caused the sentences to be so high.
#39
There is still a failure in reading comprehension. Nowhere did I mention statistical significance; I used the word "significant" in the context of an issue being present in a substantial amount. Statistical significance would be represented by a different number, not the 42%

Also, as I have made clear many times, all of my comments are about U.S. history and experiences in the U.S. I don't know how I can make that clearer.

So, you're going to ignore the fact that the U.S. did nothing when they knew that Nicaraguans were introducing crack to minority neighborhoods? Anyway, the response to the devastating heroin epidemic is not mass incarceration, and meth dealers don't even come close to the number of crack dealers who have gone to prison.

You do know that old houses still have lead paint that wasn't stripped off, right? If you're in an old house with chipping paint, then you're going to be exposed to older layers.

The media has covered the out of wedlock problem. It was even brought to the forefront during the Bush II administration. The media is not going to cover the same story every day.

The special ed problem is more prevalent among black boys.

Once again, I never said that black people are subjected to more police violence. You don't seem to understand the difference between death, general violence, and profiling.

5X is a random number, and being stopped less than 5X does not mean that there is no racial profiling.

It doesn't matter why there is a travel ban or who identified the countries. You think that stopping people from coming from certain countries is akin to slavery and denying Americans their constitutional rights.
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#40
The Topic of this thread is/was: “The most Military/Veteran friendly College Commencements!” and seems to have strayed dramatically.

Please return to THE subject matter.

Thank You!
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