To Want or Not Want Government Care?

[Pats20]

suggests that a single payer or universal healthcare system is more cost effective, and more importantly, will save people's lives that otherwise wouldn't be saved.

If the government completely takes over health care, you often end up with a 2 tier system.

1. There is one type of health care for the poor with long waiting lines, poor service, etc meant for the poor people. This is "free" health care.

Is it better to wait in long lines and (maybe) get poor service, but at least you get something or is it better to wait in long lines due to inability to pay and you wind up bankrupt and with poor-quality service anyway? 

The American people already live in a 2-tiered system where the rich can get healthcare whenever they want/need and not even blink at the costs. The poor, on the other hand, often have to resort to GoFundMe pages after visiting the hospital for something as simple as a broken leg. Where the poor avoid visiting the doctor for life-threatening conditions like heart disease or diabetes because they just can't afford it. 

America is already the dystopian society that people who are against a single-payer system claim to be trying to prevent. The financially disadvantaged are already being culled in the US.

This is not what I see. What I see is the middle class are the ones that fall into the squeeze category. The wealthy can pay the deductibles and co pays and have the platinum plans. The poor have Medicaid which is far better than most peoples health insurance plans. No premiums, No deductibles. Low if any copays.

[rachel83az]

Can you cite a source for your 25% number or is it something you made up that "feels" right?

Why can't you do your own homework?  Here's a hint, look up the obesity rate in the U.S.

Almost 50% of Americans are obese. https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html Where do you get information that around half of those are just lazy and don't want to work? Please cite the study or studies that show(s) the percentage of these people who live within a food desert and who literally cannot purchase fresh/healthy food vs. those who are just lazy.

suggests that a single payer or universal healthcare system is more cost effective, and more importantly, will save people's lives that otherwise wouldn't be saved.

If the government completely takes over health care, you often end up with a 2 tier system.

1. There is one type of health care for the poor with long waiting lines, poor service, etc meant for the poor people. This is "free" health care.

Is it better to wait in long lines and (maybe) get poor service, but at least you get something or is it better to wait in long lines due to inability to pay and you wind up bankrupt and with poor-quality service anyway? 

The American people already live in a 2-tiered system where the rich can get healthcare whenever they want/need and not even blink at the costs. The poor, on the other hand, often have to resort to GoFundMe pages after visiting the hospital for something as simple as a broken leg. Where the poor avoid visiting the doctor for life-threatening conditions like heart disease or diabetes because they just can't afford it. 

America is already the dystopian society that people who are against a single-payer system claim to be trying to prevent. The financially disadvantaged are already being culled in the US.

This is not what I see. What I see is the middle class are the ones that fall into the squeeze category. The wealthy can pay the deductibles and co pays and have the platinum plans. The poor have Medicaid which is far better than most peoples health insurance plans. No premiums, No deductibles. Low if any copays.

It depends on where you live. The very, very poor do sometimes have better health insurance than the middle class, but not always. And, even with so-called Obamacare, it can be incredibly difficult to qualify for Medicaid. If you do qualify, you often cannot take a better job to better your general position in life because you'll lose your health insurance and (possibly) die. The fact remains that there are two types of people: those who can pay for any health care needs that come up and those for whom health is a difficult calculus and a tightrope walk. Would it not be better for everyone if people were allowed to take any job without having to worry about whether or not doing so will mean killing them due to lack of health care?

[Pats20]

Only if you extend the same care to the middle class. If the guy next door can switch jobs to earn what I earn and still keep his Medicaid how’s that incentivize? Which is impossible to provide quality universal health insurance for all in a country as large as the United States. I understand what you’re saying but that’s utopia. It doesn’t exist. Every time things like benefits get increased , minimum wage increases , free phones and internet. The middle class shrinks more and more. In the long run the poor don’t end up any better off than they were before. Socialism / communism doesn’t work. I’m sure someone will point out a country with 30 million people and say it does. Big difference between 30 million and 400 million

[Flelm]

Can you cite a source for your 25% number or is it something you made up that "feels" right?

Why can't you do your own homework?  Here's a hint, look up the obesity rate in the U.S.

I didn't watch the OP's video because honestly I'm a little annoyed that he's using this forum to self promote.

The OP made the video.  This is better than most threads we see where people are lazy and just link to some article providing no original thought.

I didn't read the Elon Musk transcript because whoever did it didn't make it intelligible.

I posted the text transcript for people that like to skim read and grab a few quick points.  For the very few who will read this OT thread, it's not worth my time to format it perfectly.

The link to the video shows the interview down to the exact section where I quoted it. If you don't know how click a link then I can't help you.

As usual you didn't answer my questions. My two very specific questions. I'm done with you.

[rachel83az]

Only if you extend the same care to the middle class. If the guy next door can switch jobs to earn what I earn and still keep his Medicaid how’s that incentivize? Which is impossible to provide quality universal health insurance for all in a country as large as the United States. I understand what you’re saying but that’s utopia. It doesn’t exist. Every time things like benefits get increased , minimum wage increases , free phones and internet. The middle class shrinks more and more. In the long run the poor don’t end up any better off than they were before.  Socialism / communism doesn’t work. I’m sure someone will point out a country with 30 million people and say it does. Big difference between 30 million and 400 million

It doesn't work in the US because there are too many people who don't want it to work. They can make more money off keeping people sick than they would be able to make if costs were controlled.

Germany has a population of almost 100 million. The poor do not pay anything for healthcare. People who have jobs pay a sliding scale based entirely on their salary, not on what conditions they have. People can (and do) pay for optional upgrades, like single-bed hospital rooms, that make no difference in quality of care. Such a system could totally work in the US. People just don't want it to.

[Pats20]

I guess if the United States had a guardian angel to provide security to it. Unfortunately/ fortunately (however you want to look at it. we defend the free world. That’s a very expensive obligation.

I’m not an expert on Germany economics but they have they’re own problems. The poor in the USA don’t pay for healthcare. We have a sliding scale here. It’s what you’re willing / able to pay for health insurance. The better the plan the more it cost. If you can afford $300 week for insurance it’s going to be better than if you can afford $150 a week. The people that can afford the $300 make more than the people that can afford the $150.

[freeloader]

The United States has the most expensive healthcare system in the world.  Per capita, we pay better than 50% more per citizen than any other country.  In 2020, we spent, on average nearly $12,000 per person.  Only 1 other country spend more than $7,000 per person.  The average for industrial/post-industrial countries is around $5,700 per person, or less than half what we spend.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/char...untries-2/

So, why do we spend so much on healthcare?  Respectfully, it has nothing to do with military spending; the fact that we have a large military has ZERO relationship to our nation's ability to provide high-quality, affordable healthcare.

Lets start with providers: the average physician in the United States make more than $315,000 per year.  Germany pays its physicians, on average $183,000 per year; the United Kingdom $138,000 per year.  Just as an aside: nurses in the US make, on average, more per year than doctors in all but about a half-dozen countries.

https://www.beckersasc.com/benchmarking/...dings.html

And the insurance companies?  In the 2nd Quarter of 2020, Anthem reported $2.3 billion worth of income.  This is one insurance company and one quarter.  Anthem covers around 40 million Americans with its policies.  

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/05/healt...ofits.html



We have an expensive, inefficient healthcare system in the United States because there are many people who like it that way.  There are the physicians, nurses, healthcare executives, insurance companies, trial attorneys (suing a poor doctor isn't nearly as fun or profitable as suing a rich one!), and many others who have a real, vested interest in healthcare being as expensive as possible.  

There are the people who want to keep the government out of their lives--people who would much rather they and their employer pay, so 25% or their wages, for health insurance rather than paying nothing for insurance and having their taxes go up, say 10%.  They are willing to pay more for their "freedom."  

There are old people.  The United States already has a quasi-socialized medical system.  Its called Medicare.  It provides world-class coverage at very low cost to old people.  Most countries with real socialized medicine prioritize young, working people.  Other people are often given pain pills and allowed to die.  In the United States we allow productive, working 20- and 30-somethings to die but will spend millions of dollars providing surgeries and medicine to people in their 80s and 90s.  I remember the words of the lieutenant governor of Texas who said old people would willingly sacrifice themselves so that the state and economy would not be destroyed by Covid restrictions.  If only that were true.  Decades of voting and legislation show that is not at all true.

The reality is that we CAN have socialized medicine/Medicare for all, but we can't just expand Medicare without dramatic changes to the system.  Your family physician can't make $200,000 per year.  Your surgeon can't make $800,000 per year.  Your nurses can't make $100,000 per year.  The hospital can't make millions of dollars, despite its non-profit status.  The trial attorneys in your town can't put up hundreds of billboards on every street corner and on the back of every bus advertising how many millions/billions they have "recovered" for their clients.  And perhaps most controversially, we can't continue spending billions of dollars to prolong the lives of the oldest Americans who contribute very little to the economy.  And yes, that does mean we will have a "public" and a "private" system; the private system will focus on providing treatments of questionable necessity to old people.

[bluebooger]

government care is the best

A man said he moved from Texas to become homeless in San Francisco because the California city’s government is paying him $620 per month and hundreds more in food stamps while he sells Narcan and subscribes to Amazon Prime and Netflix on his cell phone.

The homeless man, James, claims it took him just one phone call to get government assistance including hundreds of dollars in cash and about $100 in food stamps, according to the Daily Mail. ‘Free money’ is motivation to stay homeless, said the man living on the streets of San Francisco since June.

‘F**king phone call bro… Two hundred food stamps and $620 cash a month. Forget about it. Why wouldn’t I do it? You know, it’s f**king free money dude,’ James said.

https://metro.co.uk/2022/02/10/man-gets-...-16087592/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGaWD2GMh8Y&t=1s

[rachel83az]

I guess if the United States had a guardian angel to provide security to it. Unfortunately/ fortunately (however you want to look at it. we defend the free world. That’s a very expensive obligation.

I’m not an expert on Germany economics but they have they’re own problems. The poor in the USA don’t pay for healthcare. We have a sliding scale here. It’s what you’re willing / able to pay for health insurance. The better the plan the more it cost. If you can afford $300 week for insurance it’s going to be better than if you can afford $150 a week. The people that can afford the $300 make more than the people that can afford the $150.

US healthcare isn't on a sliding scale if you have to pay 50% or more of your income for insurance because of preexisting conditions. Obamacare said that insurance companies aren't allowed to deny coverage, but it did nothing to cap the premiums to something affordable. Even with the insurance exchanges and the so-called discounts, I've spoken to multiple people with two choices: pay for expensive insurance that they can't afford or just die.

[LevelUP]

I would agree that driving down the cost of health care would be a good start.  Tort reform, lowering drug prices,  and reducing testing equipment regulations would help reduce health care costs.

Some things in the health care system do work well, such as family doctors and urgent care centers.  

I'm not sure what the deal is with people on these health threads bringing up death to scare people or manipulate them into supporting their opinion. 
https://youtu.be/eKwk1ko6ceQ