My first post- advice on path to complete my degrees in Biology and Insurance?

[Jabberwocky]

Hi guys,

I've been lurking around for a bit and finally decided to register because I think I have some questions!

A little background: I'm a manager at an insurance agency and would like to make a change from an incomplete biology degree to business. I'm 37 hours short of completing my bachelors from a local university. I eventually intend to complete my CPCU designation for insurance, which I know can give some hours as well in the future.

I am looking at Excelsior College because they offer a natural science degree (which I would like to complete since I'm soooooo close) and a business degree for risk management and insurance. My eventual goal is to go for either an MBA or MSIM (MS in Insurance Management, Boston U. offers it purely online).

I was trying to see, based on the courses I still need to complete, if anyone has any advice.

Here is what I know I need so far, going from a biology major to business.

Natural Science (bio focus)
Capstone course
Evolution course
Ecology course
Plant course (like plant anatomy or botany)
Anat. and physiology course

I only need the capstone and 34 more hours if I went the NS way without a major. I already completed pre-calc, stats, chemistry 1+2, organic 1, physics 1, and multiple sciences like cell biology and molecular genetics.

Business with RMI focus
Capstone course
Financial Accounting (CPCU course can complete)
Managerial Accounting
Business Law (CPCU course can complete)
Principles of Marketing
Production management/operations management
Risk Management (CPCU course can complete)
Risk Financing or Risk Control (CPCU elective can complete)
Principles of Insurance (CPCU course can complete)
Computer Literacy
Macroeconomics (already completed micro)
Business Ethics
Organizational Behavior


I know there are ECE's for a LOT of these courses, but I don't know if those are necessarily the *right* exams to take. I'd like to get through this as fast as possible to go for a graduate degree. I'm thinking since I only need 37 hours and 15 hours are all I need for a NS Bio major, then I should go for the majority of the business ones either for the degree or to complete requirements for the MBA or MSIM.

My questions here are these:

1) Is there a place where I can get online exams for the remaining biology hours? EC does the A&P but not the evolution, ecology, or plant anatomy. I don't know where to go in order to find these.
2) Where SHOULD I go for the remaining hours in the business? I'm looking to pass as quickly as possible; I already have enough hours for a decent GPA (mid 3.4 range) without worrying about people seeing a lot of pass/fail courses.

Once the degrees are done I'm going to complete the CPCU designation (8 courses total) which waives the GRE/GMAT requirement for the colleges I am looking at and provides some graduate hours as well. The CPCU even provides some coursework for some of these hours for undergrad, which I've noted above. I can complete the CPCU early if that is the best decision to get the hours done like with the accounting coursework, though since it is insurance-specific accounting I think I need to take the accounting 1 course and then accounting 2 and move forward from there. All of the CPCU courses give UL coursework according to ACE, so if I completed all 8 then I have 24 hours of UL coursework.

Any feedback would be GREATLY appreciated. I feel I have enough here to know where to start but I want to make sure I'm not overlooking something completely obvious first.

[cookderosa]

Hi guys,

I've been lurking around for a bit and finally decided to register because I think I have some questions!

A little background: I'm a manager at an insurance agency and would like to make a change from an incomplete biology degree to business. I'm 37 hours short of completing my bachelors from a local university. I eventually intend to complete my CPCU designation for insurance, which I know can give some hours as well in the future.

I am looking at Excelsior College because they offer a natural science degree (which I would like to complete since I'm soooooo close) and a business degree for risk management and insurance. My eventual goal is to go for either an MBA or MSIM (MS in Insurance Management, Boston U. offers it purely online).

I was trying to see, based on the courses I still need to complete, if anyone has any advice.

Here is what I know I need so far, going from a biology major to business.

Natural Science (bio focus)
Capstone course
Evolution course
Ecology course
Plant course (like plant anatomy or botany)
Anat. and physiology course

I only need the capstone and 34 more hours if I went the NS way without a major. I already completed pre-calc, stats, chemistry 1+2, organic 1, physics 1, and multiple sciences like cell biology and molecular genetics.

Business with RMI focus
Capstone course
Financial Accounting (CPCU course can complete)
Managerial Accounting
Business Law (CPCU course can complete)
Principles of Marketing
Production management/operations management
Risk Management (CPCU course can complete)
Risk Financing or Risk Control (CPCU elective can complete)
Principles of Insurance (CPCU course can complete)
Computer Literacy
Macroeconomics (already completed micro)
Business Ethics
Organizational Behavior


I know there are ECE's for a LOT of these courses, but I don't know if those are necessarily the *right* exams to take. I'd like to get through this as fast as possible to go for a graduate degree. I'm thinking since I only need 37 hours and 15 hours are all I need for a NS Bio major, then I should go for the majority of the business ones either for the degree or to complete requirements for the MBA or MSIM.

My questions here are these:

1) Is there a place where I can get online exams for the remaining biology hours? EC does the A&P but not the evolution, ecology, or plant anatomy. I don't know where to go in order to find these.
2) Where SHOULD I go for the remaining hours in the business? I'm looking to pass as quickly as possible; I already have enough hours for a decent GPA (mid 3.4 range) without worrying about people seeing a lot of pass/fail courses.

Once the degrees are done I'm going to complete the CPCU designation (8 courses total) which waives the GRE/GMAT requirement for the colleges I am looking at and provides some graduate hours as well. The CPCU even provides some coursework for some of these hours for undergrad, which I've noted above. I can complete the CPCU early if that is the best decision to get the hours done like with the accounting coursework, though since it is insurance-specific accounting I think I need to take the accounting 1 course and then accounting 2 and move forward from there. All of the CPCU courses give UL coursework according to ACE, so if I completed all 8 then I have 24 hours of UL coursework.

Any feedback would be GREATLY appreciated. I feel I have enough here to know where to start but I want to make sure I'm not overlooking something completely obvious first.

I'd like to spend some time thinking about a good reply for you, because you're asking a very complected question. I have a lot of random thoughts, but all of them come back to the same thing: your plan is very expensive in time and cash. I think there are several ways to streamline your plan into a single degree and focus on speed so you can get into grad school (which doesn't allow for speed or saving $). Since an MBA would be the most closely related to your work, I'd suggest looking at removing all obstacles that are in the way of admission.

Before I say anything else to you, I'm 9 credits short of a natural science degree. There they sit. Earned but unused in another degree. So I UNDERSTAND. At the end of the day, it boils down to a few things in the sciences. Upper level credit that is offered online (and that may require lab credit) costs a lot of money. Budget around $1000-$3000 per lab class you need. I earned my sciences AFTER my Social Science degree as a means of meeting prereqs for the various health programs I was considering. I will tell you that when I calculated the cost of my additional course/exams necessary, I was going to plop down another $7000 minimum. That same $7000, I decided, would be better served toward my very expensive grad degree. And, that's where it is. That science degree wouldn't have gained anything but ego strokes, I got in grad school without it, and I don't need it for my job. Something to think about.

Your sciences could EASILY complete an upper level portion of a liberal arts degree. If you used the remaining credits you're short by filling with the double-dip social science business set (micro, macro) and your electives for the others (marketing,etc) I think you are actually closer to a liberal arts degree in time and cost, because your lacking credits can be hit with CLEP (100/200) instead of upper levels. I'm most familiar with the programs at TESC, but someone can plug your courses into an EC plan and see if they get the same results. Just roughly thinking about a TESC plan for you, I think you could finish your BA by summer's end and apply for an MBA fall start.

[Yenisei]

If I were you I'd take a look at Thomas Edison State College's BA in Natural Science and Mathematics and focus on getting a bachelor's degree at minimal cost. If you are going to have a graduate degree in Risk Management or something very similar, you probably don't get any added benefit for having an undergrad in the same area.

[rebel100]

Cookie nailed it...as usual.

Since your intent on a Masters and have plenty of completed courses to demonstrate a GPA I would take the path of least resistance and move on to Grad school. Be sure you meet any business (MBA pre reqs) on the way...there are several ways to complete them, credit by exam, distance, online.

I would explore TESC and COSC as well as EC, they each have their pro's and con's.

[Jabberwocky]

Wow guys, thanks for the help! Sorry it took so long to respond back.

I looked at the TESC and the Natural Science/Math seems right up my alley. In fact, I think with the 37 hours remaining I can actually complete THAT degree AND the BSBA at TESC (give or take a few hours) all through exams. So that was very much appreciated! I already have some economics and stuff done since I needed some business courses for pharmacy school when I was considering that for several years.

And I located the wiki and started reading into it and it answered almost ALL of the my questions! I got a nice layout of the BANS and the BSBA for TESC and based on what I still need to do and what I've done, I think I can EASILY complete the two degrees at about 123 course hours. So thanks for pointing me along the TESC route with that degree, I didn't even notice it when I was on their website originally! I've got some nice motivation here to complete things shortly. The MBA I want to take requires me to have 2 years of working experience AFTER completing a bachelors (Olivet college for the MBA in insurance) so I'm going to pursue some additional professional education in the meantime.

Here is another question that I have:

I had a bad sophomore year at my university for various reasons and obtained a few F's. I retook the courses and got all A's except one B for that semester. My college allowed me to scrap the F in the GPA calculation for those courses as part of a forgiveness program but I could only do it for 2-3 courses. If I transfer everything over to TESC will the GPA be calculated the same way? When I was reading BAin4weeks it mentioned that you only transfer classes that give you credit, which an F does not, meaning it substantially benefits people with...*ahem* blemishes on the record. However, that site is a little outdated and I can't seem to find anything in TESC for this particular subject. Does anyone have any advice on the matter?

[sanantone]

I don't know if it was already mentioned (I'm too lazy to read everything again), but you cannot complete both of the degrees at the same time. You have to graduate from one first. After that degree is conferred, you have to earn 24 new credits within the area of study for the second degree.

TESC does not transfer grades. They'll calculate an unofficial GPA in your evaluation for quality control purposes. If any course brings your overall GPA below 2.0, then it will be dropped from your plan and something else will have to replace it. A "D" is considered passing at TESC, but if things are still the same, Ds are not acceptable for English Comp or area of study courses. Your official GPA from TESC that will go on your transcript will only come from TESC courses. The liberal arts capstone will give you a GPA if you complete the natural science degree. If you take no TESC courses for the business degree, then you will have no GPA for that degree.

When you apply for graduate school, they will require transcripts from all colleges previously attended and calculate their own GPA in most cases. If your previous college dropped the Fs from your transcript, they should not affect the GPA that's calculated. For employment purposes, only listing the TESC GPA is fine. For graduate school, you cannot escape the low grades unless they were replaced by the original college. In rare cases, some grad schools will only require transcripts from senior (4-year) colleges.

[cookderosa]

I don't know if it was already mentioned (I'm too lazy to read everything again), but you cannot complete both of the degrees at the same time. You have to graduate from one first. After that degree is conferred, you have to earn 24 new credits within the area of study for the second degree.

TESC does not transfer grades. They'll calculate an unofficial GPA in your evaluation for quality control purposes. If any course brings your overall GPA below 2.0, then it will be dropped from your plan and something else will have to replace it. A "D" is considered passing at TESC, but if things are still the same, Ds are not acceptable for English Comp or area of study courses. Your official GPA from TESC that will go on your transcript will only come from TESC courses. The liberal arts capstone will give you a GPA if you complete the natural science degree. If you take no TESC courses for the business degree, then you will have no GPA for that degree.

When you apply for graduate school, they will require transcripts from all colleges previously attended and calculate their own GPA in most cases. If your previous college dropped the Fs from your transcript, they should not affect the GPA that's calculated. For employment purposes, only listing the TESC GPA is fine. For graduate school, you cannot escape the low grades unless they were replaced by the original college. In rare cases, some grad schools will only require transcripts from senior (4-year) colleges.

Sanatone is right, you are attempting something different than what is allowed (double major) and two degrees must be in sequence, not simultaneous. Also, yes, all your graded credit still exists (when you apply to grad school they will still want your old transcripts from everywhere) but your TESC GPA will be fresh, using only credit earned at TESC. So, only TESC courses will + your GPA from what it is now, which is 0.00

Finally, I don't have your transcripts, but I'm completely convinced (for now anyway) that you are not closer to the Natural Science degree than Liberal Arts. Here's why- you need upper level credit! Your sciences will probably come in as lower level. This isn't always true (Linda here had orgo 1 and 2 come in as upper level, others as lower, and there is a reason but I've never figured it out). Upper level credit in the sciences is expensive and not easily test-out-able. There are a few, but not enough. Liberal Arts upper levels are completely test-out-able.

So, this is totally hypothetical, bear with me. Let's assume you're finished with all gen eds (60) and free electives (27). What remains is the 33 upper level credit.

Let's assume you transfer in 12 upper level science credits.

What remains?
Natural Science degree: 21 (6 can be lower) = 15 UL sciences (good luck finding tests, be sure to post them here because I only know of 3. Classes are tricky to get into and cost $$$ plus take time)
Liberal Arts degree: 21 (6 can be lower) = 15 UL social sciences or humanities. (psychology, history, govt., etc., all easily available via cheap and quick testing with the option of courses if you want)

I have no interest in which degree you're going for, I think business would likely be the best fit, but take a bit of time to really run "if-then" scenarios. It's not what TESC will give you credit for, it's how you're planning on finishing what is outstanding that requires planning.

[Jabberwocky]

Sanatone is right, you are attempting something different than what is allowed (double major) and two degrees must be in sequence, not simultaneous. Also, yes, all your graded credit still exists (when you apply to grad school they will still want your old transcripts from everywhere) but your TESC GPA will be fresh, using only credit earned at TESC. So, only TESC courses will + your GPA from what it is now, which is 0.00

Finally, I don't have your transcripts, but I'm completely convinced (for now anyway) that you are not closer to the Natural Science degree than Liberal Arts. Here's why- you need upper level credit! Your sciences will probably come in as lower level. This isn't always true (Linda here had orgo 1 and 2 come in as upper level, others as lower, and there is a reason but I've never figured it out). Upper level credit in the sciences is expensive and not easily test-out-able. There are a few, but not enough. Liberal Arts upper levels are completely test-out-able.

So, this is totally hypothetical, bear with me. Let's assume you're finished with all gen eds (60) and free electives (27). What remains is the 33 upper level credit.

Let's assume you transfer in 12 upper level science credits.

What remains?
Natural Science degree: 21 (6 can be lower) = 15 UL sciences (good luck finding tests, be sure to post them here because I only know of 3. Classes are tricky to get into and cost $$$ plus take time)
Liberal Arts degree: 21 (6 can be lower) = 15 UL social sciences or humanities. (psychology, history, govt., etc., all easily available via cheap and quick testing with the option of courses if you want)

I have no interest in which degree you're going for, I think business would likely be the best fit, but take a bit of time to really run "if-then" scenarios. It's not what TESC will give you credit for, it's how you're planning on finishing what is outstanding that requires planning.

I don't want you to take what I'm saying as arguing. I just want to make sure I'm understanding this properly because I thought I had it figured out. I obviously know there is no way to be 100% certain other than to have the college tell me everything directly, but here is what I am taking from previous posts here on the forum.

For sciences, I have completed Physics + lab, organic + lab, chemistry + lab, and biology + lab, stats, algebra, pre-calc, and calc. In addition I have done genetics, microbiology, environmental chemistry & toxicology (one course) and cell biology + lab. I was looking at TESC and they allow for computer science to count as part of the natural science, so I was looking at adding the Management Information Systems DSST (in fact, that was what one of the degree plans on the wiki used). By doing that, I have completed a total of 16 UL hours, assuming that the ones I mentioned are UL courses (the microbiology course on the wiki shows as UL if done as an ECE and I can do that if absolutely necessary). And at the very worst, I'd be willing to take the pathophysiology ECE instead which could replace one of the other courses I mentioned if the DON'T do UL credit.

EDIT: Here is the wiki link, it came from sanatone. http://degreeforum.wikia.com/wiki/Sanant...athematics

Does that look like it makes sense? If I got it wrong then shoot, I'll move into the liberal arts instead! I just have a lot to chew here and want to make sure I'm not messing up with my action plan.

I plan on putting in my original post all of the courses I have taken but I cannot get into my school system right now (down for maintenance all weekend) to pull them up. I know you guys are shooting blind until then and the advice can only be so specific without all the information.

[sanantone]

Sanatone is right, you are attempting something different than what is allowed (double major) and two degrees must be in sequence, not simultaneous. Also, yes, all your graded credit still exists (when you apply to grad school they will still want your old transcripts from everywhere) but your TESC GPA will be fresh, using only credit earned at TESC. So, only TESC courses will + your GPA from what it is now, which is 0.00

Finally, I don't have your transcripts, but I'm completely convinced (for now anyway) that you are not closer to the Natural Science degree than Liberal Arts. Here's why- you need upper level credit! Your sciences will probably come in as lower level. This isn't always true (Linda here had orgo 1 and 2 come in as upper level, others as lower, and there is a reason but I've never figured it out). Upper level credit in the sciences is expensive and not easily test-out-able. There are a few, but not enough. Liberal Arts upper levels are completely test-out-able.

So, this is totally hypothetical, bear with me. Let's assume you're finished with all gen eds (60) and free electives (27). What remains is the 33 upper level credit.

Let's assume you transfer in 12 upper level science credits.

What remains?
Natural Science degree: 21 (6 can be lower) = 15 UL sciences (good luck finding tests, be sure to post them here because I only know of 3. Classes are tricky to get into and cost $$$ plus take time)
Liberal Arts degree: 21 (6 can be lower) = 15 UL social sciences or humanities. (psychology, history, govt., etc., all easily available via cheap and quick testing with the option of courses if you want)

I have no interest in which degree you're going for, I think business would likely be the best fit, but take a bit of time to really run "if-then" scenarios. It's not what TESC will give you credit for, it's how you're planning on finishing what is outstanding that requires planning.

I forgot the rules, but if you want to double major, don't both of the majors have to come out of the same department? That would mean he couldn't major in business and natural science at the same time. I think he could do this with the BS or BA LDAS though. It wouldnt' be double majoring, but he could specialize in two areas. COSC also has the Interdisciplinary Studies degree program in which you can mix applied and liberal arts courses.

I don't want you to take what I'm saying as arguing. I just want to make sure I'm understanding this properly because I thought I had it figured out. I obviously know there is no way to be 100% certain other than to have the college tell me everything directly, but here is what I am taking from previous posts here on the forum.

For sciences, I have completed Physics + lab, organic + lab, chemistry + lab, and biology + lab, stats, algebra, pre-calc, and calc. In addition I have done genetics, microbiology, environmental chemistry & toxicology (one course) and cell biology + lab. I was looking at TESC and they allow for computer science to count as part of the natural science, so I was looking at adding the Management Information Systems DSST (in fact, that was what one of the degree plans on the wiki used). By doing that, I have completed a total of 16 UL hours, assuming that the ones I mentioned are UL courses (the microbiology course on the wiki shows as UL if done as an ECE and I can do that if absolutely necessary). And at the very worst, I'd be willing to take the pathophysiology ECE instead which could replace one of the other courses I mentioned if the DON'T do UL credit.

EDIT: Here is the wiki link, it came from sanatone. Sanantone's BA in Natural Sciences and Mathematics - Degree Forum Wiki

Does that look like it makes sense? If I got it wrong then shoot, I'll move into the liberal arts instead! I just have a lot to chew here and want to make sure I'm not messing up with my action plan.

I plan on putting in my original post all of the courses I have taken but I cannot get into my school system right now (down for maintenance all weekend) to pull them up. I know you guys are shooting blind until then and the advice can only be so specific without all the information.

I used the PLA database to figure some of these things out, but they aren't guaranteed. MIS has been listed by TESC as a natural science. Some people have reported having the Networking TECEP counted as a natural science. Pathophysiology is listed in the PLA database as CLB-371. I don't know if they'll count that as a natural science. Microbiology is listed as BIO-351. There is not an exact match for the Basic Genetics ECE, but Genetics is listed as BIO-341. It's not unheard of for TESC to give UL credit for an introductory course. Like I said, there are some CBEs offered by Ohio University.

I have a slightly different opinion from the others here. You never know what's going to come up in life and you may not want to be stuck with a liberal studies degree. If it takes you a couple of more months and a few hundred more dollars to get the natural science or business degree, I think it's worth it.

[cookderosa]

No one is arguing, just discussing. The main reason there is so much speculation is because the Natural Science degree has not been around all that long and fewer than 10 people here have completed it (not to say a zillion other people away from the forum are not, but I'm only familiar with what goes on here, so just to give you context). So, of those here who discuss it and consider it, finding upper level test credit is a gem. It's a big deal, and there are lots of people who would want to know about it, so that kind of thing is a hot topic.

I can't say for sure where TESC will plop your other sciences.(the maths and premed sequence should all be LL but who knows anymore) There are issues with how they classify in THIS area that don't exist in other areas like humanities or social science which they are very consistent in. Like Sanantone points out, there are PLA database matches to some of those classes, but until someone here attempts to transfer them in, we are all just guessing. (you could AND SHOULD submit your transcript for an unofficial eval, it's $75 and good for 6 months, then post it here )

It's a bit past my bedtime, I just keep checking the forum as a means of procrastinating an assignment I should be writing lol. Seriously though, I think you should get an eval for Natural Science and see where everything falls. *I do think you're sitting at 16 UL with the computer exam, my question is where you'll get the rest without exceeding the number in bio. Also, I would never suggest choosing between 2 degrees and choosing the faster/cheaper over utility. I thought back in your intro we learned that the goal was grad school/MBA, and that your career is insurance, in which case I don't see natural science as being more useful in that context. Sanantone is right about one other thing- the difference between 2 degrees can be a few dollars and a few months. I don't think that's going to be the case, but I also think in a few weeks you're going to re-think this so you can have a GPA anyway lol, and taking classes might become an option for you, which opens up a lot of other options. No need to settle this tonight.